Old Documents - what use in determining ownership?

Old Documents - what use in determining ownership?

Postby Shoeingsmith » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:18 pm

Does anyone on the Forum have experience in using old documents to help resolve questions about boundary responsibilities?

My property and that of my neighbour are registered, but the Register entries do not help us agree who owns and/or has responsibility for the existing freestanding boundary wall. I have Conveyances from 1876 and 1895 which describe the boundary of my property as "abutting a building belonging to Mrs X". (My neighbour is the successor in Title to Mrs X). There are no plans accompanying the Conveyances. But the OS 1:500 scale map of 1885 clearly shows the building in question. The building referred to no longer exists: instead there is a freestanding wall.

My neighbour and I do not agree whether the Conveyances and OS Map provide evidence for who owns the present wall. So my question is: what weight can be placed on these 19th Century documents given that the current boundary feature is not the one described in these old original documents?

Any knowledge or experience you can share would be greatly appreciated!
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Re: Old Documents - what use in determining ownership?

Postby MacadamB53 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:55 pm

Shoeingsmith wrote:Does anyone on the Forum have experience in using old documents to help resolve questions about boundary responsibilities?

My property and that of my neighbour are registered, but the Register entries do not help us agree who owns and/or has responsibility for the existing freestanding boundary wall. I have Conveyances from 1876 and 1895 which describe the boundary of my property as "abutting a building belonging to Mrs X". (My neighbour is the successor in Title to Mrs X). There are no plans accompanying the Conveyances. But the OS 1:500 scale map of 1885 clearly shows the building in question. The building referred to no longer exists: instead there is a freestanding wall.

My neighbour and I do not agree whether the Conveyances and OS Map provide evidence for who owns the present wall. So my question is: what weight can be placed on these 19th Century documents given that the current boundary feature is not the one described in these old original documents?

Any knowledge or experience you can share would be greatly appreciated!
so, one edge of the transferred parcel of land was described as abutting a building, and now this building no longer exists?

if the wall predates the demolition of the building it seems that no other conclusion can be made other than the wall stands on your land.

if the demolition of the building predates the wall the you’re stuck with either spending time and money investigating who built the wall, taking the ill-advised approach of assuming it straddles the boundary and therefore is shared, or else doing the straightforward and sensible thing of agreeing between you who owns it.

is there any particular reason you would not want to accept ownership?

kind regards, Mac
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Re: Legal obligation to maintain a boundary

Postby arborlad » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:02 pm

Going to get very complicated if you have two threads about the one wall:

Shoeingsmith wrote:What are the legal obligations to maintain a boundary feature that you own if there are no repair and maintenance covenants in the Register requiring you to do so?

The boundary feature in question is a wall that borders a neighbours property - i.e does not border a public road, river, open space, etc.
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Re: Old Documents - what use in determining ownership?

Postby arborlad » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:20 pm

Shoeingsmith wrote:Does anyone on the Forum have experience in using old documents to help resolve questions about boundary responsibilities?

My property and that of my neighbour are registered, but the Register entries do not help us agree who owns and/or has responsibility for the existing freestanding boundary wall. I have Conveyances from 1876 and 1895 which describe the boundary of my property as "abutting a building belonging to Mrs X". (My neighbour is the successor in Title to Mrs X). There are no plans accompanying the Conveyances. But the OS 1:500 scale map of 1885 clearly shows the building in question. The building referred to no longer exists: instead there is a freestanding wall.

My neighbour and I do not agree whether the Conveyances and OS Map provide evidence for who owns the present wall. So my question is: what weight can be placed on these 19th Century documents given that the current boundary feature is not the one described in these old original documents?

Any knowledge or experience you can share would be greatly appreciated!




The documents are part of establishing where the boundary lies, along with other factors.

Does the age of the wall and the bricks/brickwork match with other buildings?

Could the wall be the original building with the roof removed?

Any pillars, which side?

How does the wall line up with other boundary features of known ownership?
arborlad

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Re: Old Documents - what use in determining ownership?

Postby Shoeingsmith » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:28 pm

arborlad wrote:
Shoeingsmith wrote:Does anyone on the Forum have experience in using old documents to help resolve questions about boundary responsibilities?

My property and that of my neighbour are registered, but the Register entries do not help us agree who owns and/or has responsibility for the existing freestanding boundary wall. I have Conveyances from 1876 and 1895 which describe the boundary of my property as "abutting a building belonging to Mrs X". (My neighbour is the successor in Title to Mrs X). There are no plans accompanying the Conveyances. But the OS 1:500 scale map of 1885 clearly shows the building in question. The building referred to no longer exists: instead there is a freestanding wall.

My neighbour and I do not agree whether the Conveyances and OS Map provide evidence for who owns the present wall. So my question is: what weight can be placed on these 19th Century documents given that the current boundary feature is not the one described in these old original documents?

Any knowledge or experience you can share would be greatly appreciated!




The documents are part of establishing where the boundary lies, along with other factors.

Does the age of the wall and the bricks/brickwork match with other buildings?

Could the wall be the original building with the roof removed?

Any pillars, which side?

How does the wall line up with other boundary features of known ownership?


Thanks for the replies and questions - sorry for delay in responding: I forgot my own (user)name!
Anyway, to clarify:
1. The wall does not clearly match any adjoining wall - they are brick/flint constructions of different ages and styles
2. Some parts of the wall could be the original building with the roof removed - but parts of the wall are concrete block which post-dates the 19th century building.
3. One end of the wall lines up with a similar wall of known ownership - but the other end joins at right angles to a wall that is possibly owned by me
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Re: Old Documents - what use in determining ownership?

Postby MacadamB53 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:59 pm

Hi Shoeingsmith,

did you catch my response too?

kind regards, Mac
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Re: Old Documents - what use in determining ownership?

Postby Shoeingsmith » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:20 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi Shoeingsmith,

did you catch my response too?

kind regards, Mac


Hi Mac,

Just catching up....

Yes, thanks for your input:
so, one edge of the transferred parcel of land was described as abutting a building, and now this building no longer exists?
Yes, correct

if the wall predates the demolition of the building it seems that no other conclusion can be made other than the wall stands on your land.
point taken - the oldest available map (1741) shows a building there: before 1741....? who knows!

if the demolition of the building predates the wall the you’re stuck with either spending time and money investigating who built the wall, taking the ill-advised approach of assuming it straddles the boundary and therefore is shared, or else doing the straightforward and sensible thing of agreeing between you who owns it.
The evidence of the maps, conveyances, etc suggests that the wall was built to replace the building: I'm further assuming that the wall was built on the line of the building (maps suggest as much). In which case the "new" wall being built on land owned by the owner of the demolished building is therefore his - just as the building was.
Yes, agree that shared ownership (in effect party fence wall) is not desirable. As for "straightforward and sensible thing"...couldn't agree more: just have to get neighbour to come to the table on that!


is there any particular reason you would not want to accept ownership?
No ...I'm happy to accept ownership on the basis of a reasoned and reasonable interpretation of the material evidence.
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Re: Old Documents - what use in determining ownership?

Postby MacadamB53 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:07 am

Hi Shoeingsmith,

I'm happy to accept ownership on the basis of a reasoned and reasonable interpretation of the material evidence

why make it more complicated than necessary?

if you’re happy to accept ownership and next door agree then that’s that - the wall is yours.

if next door are happy to accept ownership and you agree then that’s that - the wall is theirs.

it only gets tricky if either you both claim ownership or both deny ownership.

if the neighbour is the contrary type just ask them who they think owns it and agree with their answer - life’s too short after all...

kind regards, Mac
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Re: Old Documents - what use in determining ownership?

Postby Shoeingsmith » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:13 am

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi Shoeingsmith,

I'm happy to accept ownership on the basis of a reasoned and reasonable interpretation of the material evidence

why make it more complicated than necessary?

if you’re happy to accept ownership and next door agree then that’s that - the wall is yours.

if next door are happy to accept ownership and you agree then that’s that - the wall is theirs.

it only gets tricky if either you both claim ownership or both deny ownership.

if the neighbour is the contrary type just ask them who they think owns it and agree with their answer - life’s too short after all...

kind regards, Mac


Thanks Mac....wise counsel.
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