Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

mr sheen
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Re: Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

Post by mr sheen » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:35 pm

If the walls were in disrepair the land owner could have demolished them on safety grounds to protect users of the 'passage' and to avoid injury and claims.

Obviously cost is the biggest factor in this matter along with the fact that the walls provide zero benefit ie the amenity value of e land is the same with or without the walls.
If you offering to pay for the design and construction of the walls and costs associated with legal challenges this should be made very clear in your approach to the enforcement team since this may influence them.
The landowner will need to provide written consent for the walls to be built on their land.

If you want privacy, you can add features to your land to provide it.

IdefixUK
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Re: Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

Post by IdefixUK » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:42 pm

I'm not too sure but I think the Land Registry site has a "birds eye " view facility after using a nearby postcode. That will hopefully let you know if the passage is registered. It may well not be registered as probably no dealings have occurred with that land for decades. If not registered the LR will not know the details of the title owner....but someone somewhere owns it (and possibly doesn't even know that they do own it!).
If the walls needed repairs then the deeds Indicate that the responsibility would have been between the owners of both of the lands adjacent to the wall....it looks like you can't locate one of them, and the other dismantled the wall. I think you should consider if you are wasting your time on that approach.
Last edited by IdefixUK on Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

maybenot
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Re: Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

Post by maybenot » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:00 pm

If the walls were in disrepair the land owner could have demolished them on safety grounds to protect users of the 'passage' and to avoid injury and claims.
The walls weren’t in disrepair. My question above was hypothetical in an attempt to try to tease out what the passage/passageway consists of and who ‘owned’ the walls.
Obviously cost is the biggest factor in this matter along with the fact that the walls provide zero benefit ie the amenity value of e land is the same with or without the walls.
Yes we have a right of way whatever. But we have lost privacy and there is a great deal of difference between sharing a passageway and having a right of way across someone’s garden – the posts on this website are testament to that. To us, the walls would provide a great deal of benefit. Had planning permission been sought and had we been around to object, we would have objected on these grounds (plus the conservation argument) – a bit like the 40 degree thing with windows. Where once we enjoyed privacy of access this would be removed.
If you offering to pay for the design and construction of the walls and costs associated with legal challenges this should be made very clear in your approach to the enforcement team since this may influence them.
We cannot afford this – we are going through a lot of very expensive hoops to meet conservation requirements in doing some very necessary repair/maintenance/improvements to the house. Which makes the whole thing extra galling! (Obviously we want to do the best for the house / conservation area, please don’t get me wrong there).
The landowner will need to provide written consent for the walls to be built on their land.
Who is the landowner? I thought the walls / passage way were the responsibility of us all – now I’m not so sure.
If you want privacy, you can add features to your land to provide it.
We want privacy between the neighbour’s house and their adjoining land – which the walls previously provided. They have incorporated the land (which I think it is clear they did not own) into their garden; they have knocked down the walls – if this was not a conservation area and they owned the walls that would be the end of the matter. But it is a conservation area and furthermore it’s not clear (to me at least) whether they owned the walls – I thought not …
Top
Again many thanks for your response ...

maybenot
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Re: Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

Post by maybenot » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:17 pm

If the walls needed repairs then the deeds Indicate that the responsibility would have been between the owners of both of the lands adjacent to the wall....it looks like you can't locate one of them, and the other dismantled the wall. I think you should consider if you are wasting your time on that approach.
If the walls that were demolished needed repairs then all those houses mentioned in our deeds could, I would have thought, been called upon for a contribution to the cost. However, my question really was does the passage include the walls?! This would clear up the question as to whether the neighbours owned the walls or not. (They still should not have demolished them in a conservation area without consent, I think).

The neighbour dismantled both walls. (i) The wall that had originally been at the end of their garden, and (ii) the wall the other side of the passage that was the ‘boundary’ of the extra piece of land they purchased. By knocking down these two passageway walls they united all the land they owned. Our ROW is now through this united land where the ‘passage’ once was …

I'm not sure how necessary it is to know who owns/owned the walls? We are tackling this as a breach of planning control issue. I realise our chances are slim - but if we don't try we won't know.

maybenot
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Re: Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

Post by maybenot » Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:29 pm

Yes the Land Registry has an aerial land locator. Somehow I'm having difficulty accessing it. But will look when I have a bit more time. Thank you.

maybenot
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Re: Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

Post by maybenot » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:54 pm

I've got onto the aerial locator but I can't zoom in with any clarity of image ...

maybenot
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Re: Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

Post by maybenot » Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:06 pm

Unfortunately I may not be able to respond to any posts over the next couple of weeks. However, I would still be grateful for any comments / thoughts that people may have – if anyone thinks of something that might apply to this situation. Possibly there is nothing more to add. I will get back to this when I can - and eventually I will write up the outcome in case it is of interest / use to anyone. Meanwhile thank you for your responses – your time is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

I am now not clear from the deeds:
Who owns the land underfoot of the passageway / ROW (my initial thought was not any of the residents of the houses – we all had rights and responsibilities in common)
Whether the walls should be considered part of the passageway / ROW
Whether the walls are totally owned by the person whose property abuts it – and therefore people can do what they like with them, subject to the fact that they are in a conservation area. Although that action of demolition did in this instance have a negative / detrimental effect on us – can you just go ahead in these circumstances?
The walls are party walls to the passageway and the resident whose property abuts it
Whether any of this ‘ownership’ matters given that all residents have rights and responsibilities in common?
If an enforcement notice was served presumably it would be on the people who demolished the walls? Or since there are no time limits in conservation areas on whoever happened to be living in that property and benefiting from the breach of planning control?
How concerned would the enforcement team be over ‘ownership’ if they are concentrating on breach of planning control and we know who committed that breach?

Sorry I seem to have ended up with more questions than I started with!

mr sheen
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Re: Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

Post by mr sheen » Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:26 pm

All land is owned so someone owns the land that comprises the right of way. There are Many bits of land like this with unknown owners. Historical documents may reveal an owner.

The wall may be part of the 'passage', jointly owned or owned by the adjoining land. You would have to ask them but they don't have any obligation to engage with you in relation to its ownership.

Landowners are free to use their land as they wish within the regs. And with respect to the rights of others. Action outside the regs is the business of the authorities who can choose whether to act.

Your only legal interest in the passage is your right to pass and repass over the land. Unless someone is interfering with your legal rights to pass and repass, what else happens on the land is not your business. If you believe a breach of regs has occurred you have the right to report your suspicions which will probably be investigated and a decision made about what to do if anything.

IdefixUK
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Re: Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

Post by IdefixUK » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:24 pm

These walls were demolished some 13 years ago. If your interest is recent/sudden could you share the reason for this with the readers please.
Are you (for example) concerned that the extended garden owner will apply for adverse possession of the passageway land? Or is there something else going on?

Regards

mr sheen
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Re: Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

Post by mr sheen » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:12 am

Yes this is a complaint about action taken 13 years ago!

The are statutes of limitation because people cannot remain under threat of civil legal action indefinitely, memories fade and evidence gets lost making it difficult to determine the truth. This protects us all.
Complaints about property related issues are expected to be raised immediately and actually they usually are if they adversely affect neighbours. Even most planning contraventions are accepted after 4 years.

A wall demolished 13 years ago that is on land where the OP's only interest is to pass and repass.....there is something else going on here....the OP has lived without the wall for 13 years without ill effects....the chance of forcing the replacement of this wall if it was demolished 13 years ago is nil if the landowner does not want to replace it.

maybenot
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Re: Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

Post by maybenot » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:39 am

I am able to quickly answer this ...
We have lived with this for 4 years - with neighbours who make us feel very uncomfortable.
The matter came to a head when we were discussing the right of way for some access we needed at the back (actually I was saying we had made arrangements so that we would not need to use the right of way - or at least not very much / often). This brought them out into the open about the right of way - and as I think I explained in my initial post they eventually conceded there was a right of way.
They went on to insist 'but we own the land' - I don't think they do. But I thought well it doesn't matter who owns the land it does not make any difference to our right of way.
As we have to do our best to get on with these people we did not want to antagonise them further.
The situation that has changed in that they have subsequently put their house on the market.
I therefore thought that if we were ever going to try to address the breach of planning control this was the time to do it - while they were still there and before the new people with whom we hope to have a harmonious relationship move in.
(I don't think there are time limitations to addressing breaches in conservation areas)

maybenot
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Re: Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

Post by maybenot » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:47 am

Our legal interest in the passage (whatever that comprises) also encompasses the rights and responsibilities as set out in the deeds - to use in common and to share the costs of upkeep etc ... - the neighbour's deeds seem to give them the same rights and responsibilites ... ??? Obviously there is no passageway going along the back of us because we are at the end.

These back passageways were built with walls and avoided all the sort of disputes and ill-feeling that the current situation has given rise to ... It is surprisingly stressful!

mr sheen
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Re: Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

Post by mr sheen » Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:33 am

You have the choice to Leave the stress behind immediately by dropping the matter.
How do you expect to force someone to build walls and pay for them after 13 years?
I suggest you consult a solicitor so that you get a full assessment of your position because it appears from the information given that your stress is misplaced and going nowhere.

arborlad
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Re: Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

Post by arborlad » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:24 pm

IdefixUK wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:24 pm
These walls were demolished some 13 years ago.
Regards



Can someone highlight the post where this is stated please?
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

mr sheen
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Re: Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area

Post by mr sheen » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:42 pm

maybenot wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:37 pm
Victorian terrace back passageway demolished in conservation area – ROW issues
Two high walls – a passageway - were/was demolished in a conservation area without consent (some time ago – not sure exactly when – but prior to 2006)
Prior to 2006 = 13+ years ago

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