Gardening according to the goddess of fertility & abunda

For anyone interested in gardening & a bit of light relief from the problems of this world
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Treeman
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Post by Treeman » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:47 pm

Moonbeam wrote:
It is very easy to riducule things that you know nothing about. Perhaps you would like to explain to every one why the bio-dynamic practices work?
Tell you what, if you provide some peer reviewed research that demonstrates that the bio-dynamic practices work, I will explain the why to you.

Until then it looks like a load of smoke and mirrors to me.


Treeman

Treeman
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Post by Treeman » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:54 pm

thin and crispy wrote: With regard to Ned's suggestion, I am actually planning a new book at the moment, so I hope you don't mind me giving it a plug. It's a serious socio-political study of the Natural Law Party, entitled "Yogic Flying - The most fun you can have with your legs crossed". :wink:

I have yet to find a publisher, but your most generous comments will spur me on.
.
I saw a TV programme about this many years ago. The tone was quite serious but I couldn’t help thinking that it was a waste of time and energy.

In hindsight it was at least keeping several “odd” people harmlessly entertained and out of the clutches of a religious cult.

If it’s anything like as entertaining as your posts I would like to pre order a copy.

Treeman

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Post by thin and crispy » Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:22 pm

Thanks for that Treeman. I would like to have been able to post something lighthearted again, but I'm afraid I have to bring the tone down to a more serious level (sorry Uriah Heap).

I really was quite stung by Moonbeam's criticisms; and over the last few days I have been feeling rather unsettled by the whole thing.

I couldn't help wondering whether I was wrong to be so dismissive of Biodynamics. A great many people believe in it; and practitioners take it all very seriously of course. At the back of my mind I've had this niggling thought that there might just be something in those ancient beliefs after all - even in the ones invented during the 1980s.

I've had several sleepless nights wrestling with Moonbeam's logic. She was adamant that the spiritual subtleties of Biodynamics were beyond my comprehension. What if she was right? I don't have any scientific evidence to prove that she's wrong. Nobody can actually disprove the existence of the Soniferous Ether or Nature Spirits.

So how could I, as a rational individual, discount the possibility of ten-foot tall, headless, genital-less gnomes in suits of shining armour? As a point of logic, I have to accept the possibility at least. Of course, intuition tells me it's implausible: how would the gnome keep his helmet on? But is that single incongruity a good enough reason to doubt the whole of Biodynamics? A philosophical enigma indeed!

It was a quandary that troubled me for many days. Then last night the Nature Spirits, the faeries, came to me in my dreams. It was a shocking revelation. All of the elemental forces were made manifest before my eyes. The endless cycle of death, decay and rebirth was revealed to me in all its cruel and wondrous glory. Everything I have known; everything I have understood before was overturned in that one diabolical visitation. And most horrifying of all, they didn't leave me a sixpence like last time.

The next moment: I was awake. And in a blinding flash, I knew! I knew the answer to my dilemma: It's some sort of mystical energy stuff that does it! Not only does it keep the gnome's helmet on, it also stops his codpiece dropping off and breaking his toes.

It must be, like, the same kind of force type thing that's responsible for crystal healing, and auras, and homeopathy, and levitation, and palm reading, and fermenting manure, and for anything else I can't explain. Why didn't I think of it before? The solution is elegant in its simplicity.

Now I realise that, for all these years as a rationalist, I have been talking out of my enigmatic void: there really is a spiritual objective reality that informs our meagre physical world; Anthroposophy isn't bo***cks after all.

I am now a true believer. I now aspire to be intellectually challenged; and my quest is to seek the one true knowledge so that I too can be worthy of stirring the compost.

In my pursuit of cosmic awareness, I have consulted the Akasha; I have consulted the Oracle; I have consulted the Google. But many questions remain. Four-score of my humblest queries are inscribed below, in the hope that some wise, benevolent soul will forgive my foolish denial and show me the path to true enlightenment:

What are the Nature Spirits?
Where do they come from?
How old are they?
When is the best time to see them?
What if I don't like magic mushrooms?

Do tree spirits actually live inside the trees?
Do all trees have a tree spirit?
What about large shrubs, and woody perennials?
How tall is the spirit of a bonsai tree?

Why can't you make Preparation 500 with a bull's horn?
What makes the manure ferment?
Has anyone ever eaten fermented manure - just to get high?

Is it true that all rocks are conscious?
It is true that all plants are conscious?
What's the most humane way of slaughtering parsley?

Was Preparation 500 really invented at the end of the Bronze Age?
Why does the horn have to be buried six feet deep?
Why it is wrong to bury it near a mobile phone mast?
Is it okay if my spade is made of that new fangled iron stuff?

What are the mystical energies that emanate from the stars?
What are the mystical energies that emanate from the water?
What are the mystical energies that emanate from the soil?
What are the mystical energies that emanate from the manure?
What are the mystical energies that emanate from the cow horn?
What are the mystical energies that emanate from the planets?
What are the mystical energies that emanate from the _________? (insert noun of choice)

How does the horn focus all these mystical energies on the manure?
How does the Moon focus these energies on the Earth?
Does the Moon rule the Heavens?
Are the Stars out Tonight?
What exactly is the Age of Aquarius?
What's the significance of the constellations?
Are there rings around Uranus?
Has Russell Grant verified all this?

Is an Aura like the glow you used to see on the Redibrek adverts?
What generates a person's Aura?
Are there any mystical energies involved?
That's odd, are you sure?

Is it true that a warm glow round your chakras signifies peace and harmony?
And can digestive problems really cause light to shine out of your solar plexus?
My Aura is black. Inky, deathly black; like a bottomless pit sinking deep into the dank, dark void of my soul ... Should I worry?

Does homeopathy offer real medical benefits?
Surely it's just the "placebo effect"?
How can it work when the active ingredient is spread thinner than a f@rt in a wind-tunnel?
If I don't believe in it, am I homeophobic?

Does the Biodynamic Society oversee all biodynamic enterprises?
Are all biodynamic vegetables stamped with the official Demeter symbol?
Do biodynamic practitioners have to be certified?
Can't sane people have a stir as well?

Is the Three Kings Preparation really made from Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh?
Why spray such costly and exotic treasures over your vegetable patch?
Where can I buy the ingredients?
Oh that's handy! How much do you charge?

What does a spirit guide do?
Can I have a spirit guide?
Is Napoleon fully booked?
Can I choose that great explorer of unconsciousness, Captain Morgan Hennessy Smirnoff?

What do you mean when you say the Earth breathes in?
Does breathing out cause a ridge of high pressure?
Did a hiccup cause the 1987 hurricane?
Wouldn't it be a good idea to invest in a planet-sized bottle of Windeeze - just in case?

Are Elementals the same as Nature Spirits?
What about Gnomes, Pixies, Elves, Cornish Piskeys, Knockers, Goblins, Far-Darrigs, Sprites, Clurichauns, Leprechauns, Spriggans, Smurfs and Bill Oddie?

Do you really dance naked around the compost heap?
Do you let it all hang out while doing other gardening jobs as well?
Does that nice Alan Titchmarsh ever do that?
Don't the neighbours complain?
Do you take any special precautions when trimming your hedge?
How do you dispose of the clippings from your privets?

Why are Biodynamic gnomes headless?
Why do Biodynamic gnomes have no genitals?
Will they ever go near a hedge trimmer again?
Isn't it a bit late to start wearing armour?

How does crystal healing work?
How big do the crystals have to be?
And you shove them up WHERE?
:shock: I've changed my mind: does anyone know a good dentist?
.
Last edited by thin and crispy on Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:58 pm, edited 6 times in total.

arborlad
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Post by arborlad » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:39 pm

......"it also stops his codpiece dropping off and breaking his toes. ".........and this is serious - where do I send the bill for cleaning my wine spattered keyboard? :lol:
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

Treeman
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Post by Treeman » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:43 am

Excellent. More please.

Treeman

ned
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Post by ned » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:28 pm

[quote=
I've had several sleepless nights wrestling with Moonbeam's logic. .[/quote]

best get on the bob martins - was it arm wrestling ? :shock:
Things are more like they are now than they ever were before

Uriah Heap
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Post by Uriah Heap » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:07 pm

ned wrote: best get on the bob martins - was it arm wrestling ?
maybe it was tantric arm-wresling :wink:

ned
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Post by ned » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:18 pm

Uriah Heap wrote:
ned wrote: best get on the bob martins - was it arm wrestling ?
maybe it was tantric arm-wresling :wink:

hmmm whilst yogic flying in an organic hand knitted bio lambswool thong (size ten needles no knots) 8)
Things are more like they are now than they ever were before

buffy the vampire slayer
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Post by buffy the vampire slayer » Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:18 pm

All very amusing.

But I have heard a programme on R4 extolling the virtues of Bio-Dynamic gardening. How it produces fantastic crops particularly grapes (and therefore wine - is this sounding better now??) and more and more vineyards are adopting some of the practices.

I get my veggies from a local organic farm, and I recently had some Bio-Dynamique blueberries from France, (clue was in the spelling I think) which they had got as part of their trading scheme. I can honestly say that they were the tastiest blueberries I've ever had, and if they had been sprayed with the cow dung manure 500 thing, you wouldn't have known it. (I did wash them first though).

I like science. But it doesn't have the answer to everything. Some things just work because they do. There are miracles of nature all around, many of whcih we cannot explain. It is only human arrogance that thinks that we can explain everything, and should be able to. Dare I cite the classic flight of the bumble bee as an example. Science says it can't fly, but it does.

Lets not argue and try to be right. No one can prove who is and who isn't.

Peace and Love to everyone...

I'm going off to meditate for a while now....

BTVS :wink:

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Post by ned » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:18 pm

i agree with buffys comments - not everything has its rhyme nor reason - i do wonder though if you can laugh at yourself you can laugh at anything eh lifes to short and too miserable at times not to laugh at every given opportunity. i think a laugh can be found in most things if you look hard enough - be it leaving the loo with your skirt in yer pants or preperation xyz - :lol: :shock: :lol: :shock: :lol:
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Post by thin and crispy » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:40 pm

Thanks for posting your comments Buffy and Ned. I'm pleased that you both found this thread amusing, although I can't say that I agree with either of you when you assert that some things are beyond rational explanation. Please forgive me for being a little forthright in what follows: I don't mean any of it as a personal criticism, so I hope you won't be offended.

As I said in my first post, there's obviously a modicum of common sense behind some of the practices involved in Biodynamics. It's all the mystical nonsense surrounding it that I object to. The Biodynamic rituals and preparations have no rational (let alone scientific) basis whatsoever. The simplistic association of herbs with certain animal body parts; the stirring ritual, the mystical energies, and the homeopathic dilutions are quite clearly unfounded twaddle. (And the less said about Biodynamic gnomes, the better.)

Ned, when you say that "not everything has its rhyme nor reason", do you mean you actually believe in any of this mystical stuff? I would be interested to know why you think that some things are beyond rational explanation (I don't mean that argumentatively: I just think it would illustrate a fundamental difference between your outlook and mine).

With regard to the Radio 4 programme, Buffy, the fact that some Biodynamic vineyards produce good quality wine is only to be expected. Conventional and organic production methods are also capable of producing good quality wine. Equally, I'm not surprised if more and more vineyards are adopting Biodynamics. I'm sure that (at least in part) it's a marketing exercise driven by the fact that many customers will see no further than a new buzzword on the bottle. Sellers have always been keen to stamp their products with "New and Improved!" regardless of what the new and "improved" formulation actually is. (Similarly, the organic-produce sector has mushroomed in recent years: not because there's any conclusive scientific evidence that it's more healthy, but because of consumers' uninformed fear of "nasty" pesticides combined with the supermarkets' opportunism.)

While I don't doubt that you found Biodynamic blueberries to be tasty, subjective anecdotal assessments are really no substitute for proper large-scale objective comparisons. Proponents of Biodynamics need to cite independent, peer-reviewed research to support their claims. And that research is conspicuous by its absence.

If, as you say Buffy, the quality is better than conventionally-grown produce, how can you be sure it is not simply down to one of the common-sense practices that Biodynamic smallholdings adopt alongside all of the mystical hokum?

For example, Biodynamic concerns tend to be smaller than most mass-market growers, and for this reason it might be easier for them to selectively harvest smaller batches of crops at the optimum time and to distribute those smaller quantities more effectively. Hence, your Biodynamic blueberries arrive riper and fresher. That is just one common-sense possibility. There are many other potential explanations, but I'm absolutely certain there's nothing mystical about it.

Biodynamic practitioners claim that improved quality is due to the action of some unspecified and incomprehensible energy from the constellations; the interplay between the life-forces of herbs and various dead animal parts, and the homeopathic action of extremely dilute manure. Obviously that sounds implausible - even to the Biodynamic buffoons, because they then throw Nature Spirits, gnomes and fairies into the woolly-minded mix, just to convince the sceptics.

In my view, people who profess to believe these things fall into, at least, one of three classes: the extremely gullible; the mentally disturbed, or those possessing cult-leading tendencies.

I agree with you when you say that science doesn't have the answer to everything. But I certainly don't think it's arrogant to believe that physical phenomena are fundamentally explainable. Science can, as yet, only explain a fraction of observable phenomena, but to dismiss everything else by saying "some things just work because they do" is an apathetic cop out. Science has a very long way to go, but it will get there. Indeed, it's the only route. Just look how far it's gone already.

As I said in an earlier post, if we don't understand something, the rational approach is to investigate it scientifically. To assume it's unexplainable, or due to some sort of spiritual magic, is nonsensical.

If human beings had adopted the "I don't understand, so I'll give up" attitude a few hundred years ago there would be none of the benefits we're used to today (medical advances, sanitation, electricity, clean water, communications, transport etc.). Indeed if our forebears had adopted that attitude from the outset, we'd still be swinging around in the trees.

I realise that many people distrust science because of things like pollution, weapons, nuclear waste etc., but to do so is to confuse science with politics, economics and greed. And turning to mysticism as an alternative to science is just foolhardy. Fundamentally, science is about knowledge. It is a rigorous and rational way of understanding the universe. People that reject science are, in essence, rejecting rationality. I believe that such an attitude is irresponsible and worthy of derision - hence my posts.

I believe, as well, that it is worthwhile arguing about these things. If people accept mystical fairy tales as a substitute for rational thought, they will be taken advantage of by more informed and unscrupulous people - i.e. by politicians, cultists, advertisers and anyone else who can see a way to further their ends via the ignorance of others. Worse still, if unchallenged, this nonsense tends to spread, and it all becomes part of a self-reinforcing subculture of stupidity. Believe me I know. There is a whole community of these morons stationed close by - daily inflicting their "don't-care philosophy" on the few normal people that still live in the area.

Incidentally, science doesn't say a bumble bee can't fly. That's just one of those fallacies that seem to get perpetuated by people who should know better.

Science and Rationality (by that I mean Knowledge and Understanding) to everyone...

I'm going off to conduct evil scientific experiments for a while now... :)

Thin and Crispy ;)
Last edited by thin and crispy on Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

ned
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Post by ned » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:10 pm

Ned, when you say that "not everything has its rhyme nor reason", do you mean you actually believe in any of this mystical stuff? I would be interested to know why you think that some things are beyond rational explanation (I don't mean that argumentatively: I just think it would illustrate a fundamental difference between your outlook and mine).


well hmm i do have some beliefs i suppose in the ''mystical'' but more along the lines of intuition etc putting so much trust in the gonadless gnome however fits no where in my idealistic ideals of whimsy - when i said not everything has its rhyme and reason i mean i believe that not everything has reason - and the one time i felt this very fitting is when my dad who was very ill said he was trying to think , thinking really hard for a reason, something awful he may of done, that was the reason he was suffering as he was - my response - not everything has its rhyme or reason - some things are senseless - although i'm not sure if i'd walk under a ladder :wink: :roll: :wink: :roll:

i have enjoyed your writings immensley and confess that i have not heard at all about bio wotsits until your post - and to be honest my interest in it stops with your posts - my interest is in your posts because they are well written, very humourous and enlightening. i do believe each to their own and that we should be able to enjoy each other's humour and laugh together about allsorts and everything because lifes far too short not to


can i ask you - do you have any beliefs regarding death and what happens next if anything ?
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Post by thin and crispy » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:17 pm

Hello Ned. Thanks for your post and for being so frank. I see what you mean now about reason, and I do understand your point of view. I think I felt the same when my father died several years ago. I guess it's a fruitless task trying to find any sort of meaning or justification in situations like that.

I suppose we each meant something slightly different when we talked about "reason".

I must say I'm relieved to hear you're not a Biodynamic believer, and it's very nice of you to say what you have about my posts. I agree wholeheartedly with what you said about humour and laughter.

As far as my own beliefs are concerned, I must confess that they aren't quite 100% rationalistic. Having been brought up in a family that had some slight religious tendencies, and in schools where religion was part of daily life, I still find it hard to totally dismiss the notion of God or an afterlife etc.

Having said that, I can't justify those lingering doubts with any sort of evidence or logic whatsoever. Indeed thinking about it rationally, I can quite understand why my early experiences are so deeply ingrained and difficult to dismiss.

As you might have guessed, I've taken the scientific route through life, and the older I get, the less I tend to believe in anything spiritual. I don't really see any clear evidence for it, yet I see a vast amount of evidence to support the opposing viewpoint. At present, I guess my views are 99.9% against the existence of anything spiritual. The remaining 0.1% of the time, I'm just hoping God also has a sense of humour. :)

I tend to believe that our minds are just the product of bodily biochemical processes, rather than separate etheral entities, so I'd have to conclude there couldn't be any sort of afterlife.

Important as some personal things are to me, I believe that on a cosmic scale humans are insignificant beings - both individually and collectively. In a nutshell, my outlook is: do what you can to maximise the quality of your own life and that of others (there's generally no valid reason to do otherwise), but at the same time - on a grand scale - nothing that you do really matters.

I guess some people would say that's a rather bleak point of view, but I actually find it comforting. Having a basic appreciation of the vastness of the universe and the (truly wondrous) scientific complexities of nature tends to put my life and troubles into some sort of perspective.

Kind regards,
Jim

Uriah Heap
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Post by Uriah Heap » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:00 am

:shock:

ned
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Post by ned » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:27 pm

thin and crispy wrote:Hello Ned. Thanks for your post and for being so frank. I see what you mean now about reason, and I do understand your point of view. I think I felt the same when my father died several years ago. I guess it's a fruitless task trying to find any sort of meaning or justification in situations like that.

I suppose we each meant something slightly different when we talked about "reason".

I must say I'm relieved to hear you're not a Biodynamic believer, and it's very nice of you to say what you have about my posts. I agree wholeheartedly with what you said about humour and laughter.

As far as my own beliefs are concerned, I must confess that they aren't quite 100% rationalistic. Having been brought up in a family that had some slight religious tendencies, and in schools where religion was part of daily life, I still find it hard to totally dismiss the notion of God or an afterlife etc.

Having said that, I can't justify those lingering doubts with any sort of evidence or logic whatsoever. Indeed thinking about it rationally, I can quite understand why my early experiences are so deeply ingrained and difficult to dismiss.

As you might have guessed, I've taken the scientific route through life, and the older I get, the less I tend to believe in anything spiritual. I don't really see any clear evidence for it, yet I see a vast amount of evidence to support the opposing viewpoint. At present, I guess my views are 99.9% against the existence of anything spiritual. The remaining 0.1% of the time, I'm just hoping God also has a sense of humour. :)

I tend to believe that our minds are just the product of bodily biochemical processes, rather than separate etheral entities, so I'd have to conclude there couldn't be any sort of afterlife.

Important as some personal things are to me, I believe that on a cosmic scale humans are insignificant beings - both individually and collectively. In a nutshell, my outlook is: do what you can to maximise the quality of your own life and that of others (there's generally no valid reason to do otherwise), but at the same time - on a grand scale - nothing that you do really matters.

I guess some people would say that's a rather bleak point of view, but I actually find it comforting. Having a basic appreciation of the vastness of the universe and the (truly wondrous) scientific complexities of nature tends to put my life and troubles into some sort of perspective.

Kind regards,
Jim
Howdy Doody Jim,

I don't find your point of view bleak but I do disagree that '' nothing you do really matters'' because how can it not matter ? if none of our actions mattered there would be no reason to have any interest or morals or any feelings or emotions because it wouldn't matter. Isn't that what makes us human ( some more so thatn others) the fact that things matter?

Maybe its a cop out but I have decided not to look for all the answers to all questions, I am quite happy to live with a few mysteries - makes me feel a bit Miss Marple at the beginning of a new day, a bit airy fairy granted but amuses me some what. I don't think I want to rationalize everything some things just aren't rationable.

The older I get (the longer I get) the less faith I have in things and human beans, which I guess is why I don't want to know all there is about all things. Is that denial? - I'm not sure. I do think some of us are dealt short straws and some of us long and theres no rhyme or reason to that. I am sure god has a sense of humour he/she must have!

So for this week I will mainly be looking for humour in allsorts. So far this week I have managed to humour myself without effort by forcing my 50 pence piece into the slot where your ticket comes out in the airport car parking machine. Maybe if I had tried the pound coin first I would have realised that you simply press the buton to obtain your ticket - zut alor he he he,

Bestest wishes,
Denise

[/b]
Things are more like they are now than they ever were before

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