They need to stop building on flood plains then

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despair
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They need to stop building on flood plains then

Post by despair » Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:30 am

The government shoots itself in the foot by forcing councils to build more and more houses covering more and more land including flood plains
allows drainage ditches to be filled in and does not require farmers to clear ditches or ensure rivers are dredged and then everyone wonders why extreme weather causes so much havoc

The UK simply cannot go on building more and more houses thats the bottom line

Collaborate
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Re: They need to stop building on flood plains then

Post by Collaborate » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:19 am

[quote="despair"]
The UK simply cannot go on building more and more houses thats the bottom line[/quote]

The government can't afford not to build more houses. It's the location that's the problem.

Collaborate
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Re: They need to stop building on flood plains then

Post by Collaborate » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:03 pm

As many UK citizens live abroad as live here - and the ones here tend to be more economically active than UK emigrants.
But why let the facts get in the way of migrant-bashing.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5cd640f6-9025 ... z3vvGdAewj

Roblewis
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Re: They need to stop building on flood plains then

Post by Roblewis » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:06 pm

Our LA is building a new 6000 house estate in a wetland area - complete with water leisure centre. It was flooded by the Trent not so many years ago

humptydumpty
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Re: They need to stop building on flood plains then

Post by humptydumpty » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:53 am

[quote="Collaborate"]As many UK citizens live abroad as live here - and the ones here tend to be more economically active than UK emigrants.
But why let the facts get in the way of migrant-bashing.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5cd640f6-9025 ... z3vvGdAewj[/quote] more people still come to live in the UK each year than leave to live elsewhere, so nothing to do with 'migrant bashing' as you put it, but simple mathematics! More homes required!

Hugh Jaleak
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Re: They need to stop building on flood plains then

Post by Hugh Jaleak » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:39 am

Dredging existing watercourses would be a good start. For years this has been done, with the resulting arisings deposited on the banks to dry, and soon sprouting new growth of grasses, wild flowers etc, as nature did its work. Along come the Environment Agency who suddenly decide these arisings are now a 'waste', that needs to be disposed of in landfill at massive costs. This coupled with some EU legislation about not dredging watercourses, and the results were entirely predictable. The Somerset Levels copped it last year, now the North West. Funny how when the Thames got rather high the other year all hell broke loose, yet anywhere else has to get on with it.

I know of a group of lads who were working on a job in Cumbria. Work was suspended due to rising water levels, at which time they heard about the problems in Glenridding. Armed with their heavy machinery they went to Glenridding to offer help. (Bear in mind they work on Hydro electric schemes for a living.) The 'suits' who were too busy ticking boxes whilst peoples homes and businesses were slowly going underwater, refused them access. (The Army were dealing with it they said.) The lads were not daunted, they waited. Later on that night when the 'suits' had gone, they basically ignored the 2 Police Officers left to prevent them getting on site, and moved in to start work. Their actions has won them the praise of the villagers, as without their hard work clearing thousands of tonnes of gravel and stone that had washed down blocking the Beck, the result doesn't bear thinking about.....

despair
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Re: They need to stop building on flood plains then

Post by despair » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:53 am

Precisely Hugh

Its the EU
The environment agency
The "suits " all of whom know nothing
Do nothing
But cause total havoc

arborlad
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Re: They need to stop building on flood plains then

Post by arborlad » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:08 pm

Hugh Jaleak wrote: I know of a group of lads who were working on a job in Cumbria. Work was suspended due to rising water levels, at which time they heard about the problems in Glenridding. Armed with their heavy machinery they went to Glenridding to offer help. (Bear in mind they work on Hydro electric schemes for a living.) The 'suits' who were too busy ticking boxes whilst peoples homes and businesses were slowly going underwater, refused them access. (The Army were dealing with it they said.) The lads were not daunted, they waited. Later on that night when the 'suits' had gone, they basically ignored the 2 Police Officers left to prevent them getting on site, and moved in to start work. Their actions has won them the praise of the villagers, as without their hard work clearing thousands of tonnes of gravel and stone that had washed down blocking the Beck, the result doesn't bear thinking about.....

These lads?..........: http://www.itv.com/news/border/update/2 ... nce-again/

............and this: http://mhwmagazine.co.uk/beckside-const ... dding.html
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

Hugh Jaleak
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Re: They need to stop building on flood plains then

Post by Hugh Jaleak » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:03 pm

Yes. They've just thanked everyone in Glenridding for the 'food, drink, beds and support whilst we have been trying to help after the terrible floods'. The Villagers would like them Knighted for all their efforts to save the village!

Fig Roll
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Re: They need to stop building on flood plains then

Post by Fig Roll » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:36 pm

Sorry to disagree but watercourse dredging is not a real solution. The chaps ar Glenridding who flew in the face of the 'pen pushers'' (and yes I have direct experience of dealing with the company) didn't solve the problem as the village flooded again in the following days.
So even their vast experience of becks like and the ability to disregard some key principles didn't yield a solution. Over deepening, straightening and building banks up is an agricultural approach that is proven not too work (in the vast majority of cases).
Coupled with the majority of bridges that remained standing after both this event and the 2009 event suffered from scour so their foundations were exposed so wouldn't dredging just exacerbate this?

I think people need to step back and have a look at what happened in the days before. We have had (in Cumbria) about 6 months of rain in a few weeks. Have a look at some of the aerial footage of the flooding. In some cases there is a river about 15 metres wide with floodwater stretching hundreds of metres either side. Not a chance in hell of fitting in has it, even with some gung Ho 360's tearing up and down.

I agree something needs to be done. Cameron poncing around in a clean pair of Hunters is a start (albeit a poor one). Knee jerk lets dredge watercourses is not an answer. We'll be having a petition for Gabon basket lined river banks next.

stufe35
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Re: They need to stop building on flood plains then

Post by stufe35 » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:26 pm

Dredging might not be 'the solution' but it definitely part of the solution. Particularly the further downstream you are.

If rivers are allowed to silt up they are no longer as big, so the water that enters them can't get away so quickly and upstream areas will flood more easily.

It's like your bath, if the pipe connected to the outlet wasn't as big it would take longer to empty. Simple maths.

Hugh Jaleak
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Re: They need to stop building on flood plains then

Post by Hugh Jaleak » Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:06 pm

If 'dredging is not a real solution', would you care to offer an alternative? I'm not familiar with the Cumbria area, but I have been following events on social media and the chaps that have been working in Glenridding do seem to have attracted a lot of praise from the locals. (I concluded their efforts were appreciated....)

I dont think anyone is 'knee jerk'ing, the simple fact seem to be, the EA have presided over a vast reduction in dredging works over the last decade or so, (which seems to be related to an EU directive on the issue), then when we do have rainfall of biblical proportions, the watercourses simply become overwhelmed. I'm not saying flooding wouldn't have occurred, but it stands to reason, if the watercourses were able to take more flow, the over spill would be lessened. I appreciate the point about scour around bridge foundations, but watercourses do silt up over time. It is getting the balance in removing that silt to allow increased flow, against the maximum level of flow the bridge was built to withstand. Not an easy equation, granted, but whilst these bridges may have stood firmly for many years, their builders cannot possibly have imagined their efforts would still be standing, and expected to remain in daily use indefinitely.

The building on floodplains is a recent matter, many of the properties that were affected this time seem to be much older, at the time they were constructed there was not the demand (or greed) surrounding the construction of homes, and therefore our ancestors were more selective of, (and wiser about), where they chose to build.

ukmicky
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Re: They need to stop building on flood plains then

Post by ukmicky » Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:31 am

[quote="Hugh Jaleak"]If 'dredging is not a real solution', would you care to offer an alternative? I'm not familiar with the Cumbria area, but I have been following events on social media and the chaps that have been working in Glenridding do seem to have attracted a lot of praise from the locals. (I concluded their efforts were appreciated....)

I dont think anyone is 'knee jerk'ing, the simple fact seem to be, the EA have presided over a vast reduction in dredging works over the last decade or so, (which seems to be related to an EU directive on the issue), then when we do have rainfall of biblical proportions, the watercourses simply become overwhelmed. I'm not saying flooding wouldn't have occurred, but it stands to reason, if the watercourses were able to take more flow, the over spill would be lessened. I appreciate the point about scour around bridge foundations, but watercourses do silt up over time. It is getting the balance in removing that silt to allow increased flow, against the maximum level of flow the bridge was built to withstand. Not an easy equation, granted, but whilst these bridges may have stood firmly for many years, their builders cannot possibly have imagined their efforts would still be standing, and expected to remain in daily use indefinitely.

The building on floodplains is a recent matter, many of the properties that were affected this time seem to be much older, at the time they were constructed there was not the demand (or greed) surrounding the construction of homes, and therefore our ancestors were more selective of, (and wiser about), where they chose to build.[/quote]

The solution is do not build on flood plains. That no longer a solution for those who own houses on floods plains so what can be done now.

Dredging whilst it will have an effect ,will not help much in extreme weather like we have had recently and building up flood defences in cities will only push the problem on further down stream.

we have only two choices do we allow the water to flood out onto farmers fields or into the towns. Most would say Farmers fields but is that fair on the farmers.

Fig Roll
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Re: They need to stop building on flood plains then

Post by Fig Roll » Sat Jan 02, 2016 9:48 am

[quote="stufe35"]Dredging might not be 'the solution' but it definitely part of the solution. Particularly the further downstream you are.

If rivers are allowed to silt up they are no longer as big, so the water that enters them can't get away so quickly and upstream areas will flood more easily.

It's like your bath, if the pipe connected to the outlet wasn't as big it would take longer to empty. Simple maths.[/quote]

Stufe - your bath is the Lake District, your plug hole is a couple of historic town with listed buildings and bridges either side of the river which has a bed rock bed thereby limiting scope for deepening/widening. Your 40mm waste pipe after the plug hole is the downstream river and the outlet to your waste pipe is the sea. You could run an extra couple of downstream waste pipes for good measure but your bath will only empty as quickly as your throttle (plug hole) will allow. Now have your taps running full bore and add a hose pipe for good measure. Simple maths suggest your bath will overflow if more goes in than can come out. For the sake of good order I have assumed your waste pipe is free of blockages.

pilman
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Re: They need to stop building on flood plains then

Post by pilman » Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:47 pm

Because I noticed the new addition to the forum topics I started to read the postings regarding the current crisis that has caused the flooding in various parts of the country.

As someone with no experience of such matters I read all of the postings just as a matter of personal interest, although the last posting does seem to suggest that the amount of rain falling in such a short time does have an enormous impact on the flooding, because the capacity of the rivers does not allow enough rainfall to be dispersed as quickly as is needed.

The initial posting that concluded with the sentence "The UK simply cannot go on building more and more houses thats the bottom line" seems to have started the thread with a statement that cannot possibly be justified if the subject matter is "Flooding"

Some of the subsequent postings do at least consider certain facts that may have merit, because they related to possible flood prevention methods.

I just hope this particular topic doesn't just turn into a rant by some of the posters known to rant about every single subject on the site, despite having no real knowledge about that subject.

Let's all try and make 2016 the year when accurate advice and helpful comments are offered, or else just don't bother posting.

By the way, the village I live in is about 8 miles south of the River Ouse that flows through Bedford and is on the hill above the valley where the original "ford" across the river was located.

How will not building houses in my village prevent flooding in the town of Bedford or in the Cubrian area?

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