Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Collaborate
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Re: Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Post by Collaborate » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:15 am

His title plan (or the one attached to the transfer) does nothing to indicate ownership of the boundary feature. the T mark is meaningless, as the narrative explains it only serves to determine the ownership of boundary features as between plots on the same development.

I would very strongly suspect that if your fence is in line with all of the other fences along your row of houses, and subject to title deeds further back in the history of your property not indicating otherwise, you own the fence. I am assuming that when your houses were built there was nothing behind your boundary but undeveloped land. It would therefore be assumed that your builders fenced in their land to its fullest extent.

arborlad
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Re: Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Post by arborlad » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:20 am

Collaborate wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:15 am
It would therefore be assumed that your builders fenced in their land to its fullest extent.



An important point to emphasise in terms of the existing fence being the established boundary feature that was in situ when he purchased, so he wouldn't have been able to contest it then, and nothing has happened in the intervening years that would allow him to contest it now.

His claim is baseless and entirely without foundation.
arborlad

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Sarumguy
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Re: Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Post by Sarumguy » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:45 am

Questions for you.
Is that what he is disputing? Or is there more to it? What exactly is he saying to you? Is he also disputing the position of any boundary features (fences/hedges/walls) with any of your next door neighbours or beyond whose land also abuts his? Or has he singled you out for his first attack, perhaps seeing you as the weakest link?
The measurements on your plan may well show the size of the plot but unfortunately not in relation to any fixed point.
Hope that you've taken loads of good quality photos to show the position of the fence now.

Thank you for your useful comments. His contention is that the 6ft wooden fence (no gate) is there for aesthetic reasons and that it does not sit on the boundary and which he believes is 4 ft lower. He is citing the back fence of my neighbour to my RH side which is approx 4ft shorter (long story but related to privacy fence planted to conceal new estate). No such gap on LH side. There is a clear line marked for all properties on the road to the front that indicates where individual properties are responsible for drains etc. You are correct that there is a danger of him moving along the row of properties to my LH side if he was successful in moving the boundary. I have been here the longest, 17 years. Lots of photos, google earth images etc etc

arborlad
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Re: Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Post by arborlad » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:16 pm

Sarumguy wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:45 am
His contention is that the 6ft wooden fence (no gate) is there for aesthetic reasons ...............


Not relevant, it was there when he purchased - he saw what he bought and bought what he saw.

Might be worth checking your neighbours property for any planning applications.
Last edited by arborlad on Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
arborlad

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IdefixUK
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Re: Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Post by IdefixUK » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:38 pm

I am not qualified in any aspect of the law, but it seems clear from what we know from you, that even if the 6ft fence is not correctly positioned on the original boundary line, that fence has now become the boundary. This is due to the passage of time and that neither you or the neighbour to the rear questioned the position of the fence at the times of your respective purchases. Furthermore any land which you have "gained" and possessed since the erection of the fence (if it was incorrectly positioned) has become yours by the process known as Adverse Possession .
I trust that the neighbours in your row of houses are up-to-speed with what's going on, and that they too have taken the opportunity to take plenty of photos etc.
You mentioned that the line of the fence as shown on the plan is just to the inside of the neighbour's red boundary line shown on the same plan. This is of no real sgnificance as the red line shows up only the "general boundary line" and the red line around a property should only be used to identify the property in that area and the general boundary around it. (Rarely properties have "defined boundaries" when the line of the boundary can be shown to very fine tolerances...yours is not one of those).
I'm reasonably sure that he will not take court action against you...although he may well threaten to.(BBB in action!).
Just ask, and keep asking him to provide you, in writing, with any evidence that any of the land you possess belongs to him, and which case law he hopes to rely upon if it ever were to get to court. Personally I would not allow him or a surveyor to measure my boundaries (warn the next door neighbours to do the same!) The onus is on him to provide evidence to back up his case.

If you want to ruffle his feathers you might suggest that he engages a solicitor who is understands land law.

Regards

twinkle***
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Re: Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Post by twinkle*** » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:18 pm

Dear Sarumguy

Please take a deep breath and take a step back.....if you have absolute title registered at the land registry, and your fencing has not changed since you bought your property in 2002,this cannot be challenged, twelve years has passed to not be able to challenge your deeds, (statute limitations), you bought what you saw with your good money, A.P. is definitely in place...I totally agree with all previous helpful posters on here.....our neighbours tried to take a piece of our land which we have owned for over 28 years..... :D :D :D.....hope you feel a little less stressed with the help you have been given by the good advisors on this site.

Best wishes

Twinkle***

Sarumguy
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Re: Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Post by Sarumguy » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:30 pm

Thank you all for your very useful and informative replies, all of which seem to confirm my view that I was right not just to roll over. Its very frustrating that I had zero knowledge of boundaries 2 years ago and if I knew then what I do now I would have insisted on the new dispute protocol being adopted. Sadly I fear that the dispute will continue to run for many years as he has already highlighted the full impact of a dispute if I ever wish to sell.

IdefixUK
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Re: Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Post by IdefixUK » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:15 pm

Sarumguy wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:30 pm
Sadly I fear that the dispute will continue to run for many years as he has already highlighted the full impact of a dispute if I ever wish to sell.
...or if he wishes to sell before you!

One way of putting the dispute to bed would be to sell the disputed strip of land to him (if you didn't really need it). The cost to him taking this to court and loosing could be quite high, even if he acts for himself in court, and will probably exceed the value of the land. Do you think he would take that risk?
Keep the price affordable so that he really can't say no to such a "sensible" offer, and be sure that he pays all your reasonable legal expenses and any survey fees etc.(and a new fence). If he doesn't bite at the opportunity then he is just playing with you out of spite!
Just an Idea:.....Were you to write (or get a solicitor to write) offering the land for sale to him "On highly competitive terms if he is willing to purchase by a certain date"(don't state a price). (You could say that you have been approached by one of your two next door neighbours to see if you would sell say half of your garden to them but you thought it only polite to offer it to him first as he has shown imterest in obtaining the land from you previously) Of course you will need to word it very carefully. If he replies with an offer it will indicate that he acknowledges your ownership of that land.
I don't think that your position would be weakened by suggesting this to him...but other posters may disagree, so see what they say first.
Net Result =dispute gone, a few quid in the bank, a slightly smaller garden, some peace.

arborlad
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Re: Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Post by arborlad » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:03 am

How do you receive the bulk of the communication from your neighbour, letters, e-mail etc?

Can you quote an anonymised one so that we can get the gist of them?
arborlad

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Sarumguy
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Re: Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Post by Sarumguy » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:43 am

In order to curtail the volume of correspondence I recently stated that I would ignore emails and that all correspondence should be forwarded by letter. I received the following

What you’ve said is a real disappointment, and given that for me we seemed to be making progress, some might say a bit cynical.

I can’t help but think now that we’re heading towards court, which will add considerable time, and cost to the whole affair. I’m sure you’re in little doubt though about my determination to see this through, and commitment to find information to determine the truth. This isn’t being done on a whim as you seem to think. Were you to provide incontrovertible evidence of your position, I’d back off immediately, and the fact that you have been reluctant to do this, particularly regarding my request yesterday, just makes me more determined.

This will be resolved on the basis of evidence, and the big challenge here is that you have most of it. I can understand to a degree your reluctance to share – there is no compulsion yet, but as I said earlier – truth will out. So, with regard to my last request, it seems pointless to withhold this information, as (a) I know you have it, and (b) it seems so much simpler to share that rather than pay someone else to demand it. Please don’t destroy those earlier deeds, which you’ve told me you have. I’m more than happy as I’ve said many times, to argue this out with your lawyer present.

Finally, could you just clarify what you’ve said about communication please – on the one hand you say none, but on the other, that I should only write by letter. The sum of this means I can write, but you won’t answer – am I correct? If so, I won’t waste my energy.

IdefixUK
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Re: Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Post by IdefixUK » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:17 pm

Sarumguy wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:43 am
In order to curtail the volume of correspondence I recently stated that I would ignore emails and that all correspondence should be forwarded by letter. I received the following

What you’ve said is a real disappointment, and given that for me we seemed to be making progress, some might say a bit cynical.

to make you feel bad

I can’t help but think now that we’re heading towards court,

thinly disguised threat

which will add considerable time, and cost to the whole affair.

first true words

I’m sure you’re in little doubt though about my determination to see this through, and commitment to find information to determine the truth.

little doubt about the his guy's sanity or ,rather, the lack of it

This isn’t being done on a whim as you seem to think.

really?

Were you to provide incontrovertible evidence of your position,

it is for him to provide the evidence to back his case.not you

I’d back off immediately, and the fact that you have been reluctant to do this, particularly regarding my request yesterday, just makes me more determined.

threat that this isn't going to go away

This will be resolved on the basis of evidence,

or attrition

and the big challenge here is that you have most of it.

what a crying shame

I can understand to a degree your reluctance to share

as can the forum members

– there is no compulsion yet

truth No2

, but as I said earlier – truth will out.

suggestion is that you are lying or concealing

So, with regard to my last request, it seems pointless to withhold this information,

does it?

as (a) I know you have it, and (b) it seems so much simpler to share that rather than pay someone else to demand it.

like whom?

Please don’t destroy those earlier deeds, which you’ve told me you have.

the use of the word please should always arouse suspicion

I’m more than happy

because I have several loose screws

as I’ve said many times, to argue this out with your lawyer present.

he wants an arguement

Finally, could you just clarify what you’ve said about communication please – on the one hand you say none, but on the other, that I should only write by letter. The sum of this means I can write, but you won’t answer – am I correct?

reasonable assumption

If so, I won’t waste my energy.

or paper
:D

Fine example of the 3B's. Bluster, Bullying and Bullshite.

Sarumguy
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Re: Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Post by Sarumguy » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:33 pm

Thanks for an excellent dissection. Suffice to say my response was that he had to use royal mail and not hand deliver letters but it does illustrate the psychological game play that you can be exposed to.

arborlad
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Re: Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Post by arborlad » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:02 am

Dear Mr. Plasticsolicitor.................I would urge you to seek independent third party advice before you continue with this folly, I will vigorously contest any attempt to take my land.

When you purchased 9 years ago, all of the land within the boundary features was conveyed to you - none of my land was included in that conveyance.

If you truly believed there were any errors or omissions in your purchase, that was the time to address it with your vendor - doing nothing will inevitably prove fatal to any claim to my land.



Do you have any Legal Expenses Cover?
arborlad

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arborlad
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Re: Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Post by arborlad » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:02 am

This is a direct quote from a solicitor: 'Immediate steps must be taken to remove the manhole and any connecting conduits.' ...................the drains in question are over 100 years old...........

From this thread: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21276


Also from that thread:
arborlad wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:28 am
arborlad wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:24 pm
This is what Conveyancer had to say in a situation similar to yours:

Note especially No.6:



Conveyancer wrote:Write back and say:

Dear Sir,

[Insert heading describing property]

Thank you for your letter of...

1. The land in question is entirely within my title as registered at HM Land Registry, as you will discover if you take the trouble to obtain office copy entries.

2. I have been in undisputed possession of the land for twenty years.

3. A legal title guaranteed by the state coupled with long term de facto possession gives me an indefeasible right to the land.

4. Your reference to aggravated and exemplary damages is made solely to frighten me into conceding some land.

5. Should proceedings be instituted they will be defended vigorously and the court asked to award costs on a full indemnity basis on the grounds that the claim is wholly without merit.

6. It cannot be coincidental that this entirely spurious claim comes at a time when your client wishes to construct an extension for which he has insufficient space.

7. If either you or your client persist in maintaining that I do not have title to the land I shall have no option but to begin proceedings for slander of title.

8. I shall not engage in any further correspondence in this matter.

I remain your obedient servant,

arborlad

smile...it confuses people

Sarumguy
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Re: Legal Standing of Transfer of Part

Post by Sarumguy » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:17 am

Thank you and I think what was detailed in my neighbour's conveyance nearly a decade ago goes to the nub of this matter. I am intrigued how you can suddenly claim there is a problem with a boundary after such a length of time. I attach a picture from righmove taken from neighbours window. Is it credible that no mention of ownership of land beyond fence in attached picture is made in any conveyance documentation.
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