Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

70sThrowback
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Re: Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

Post by 70sThrowback » Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:41 pm

As I hate it when people come on a forum, get advice and then disappear I wanted to keep this updated.

So my solicitor sent the letter as previously posted and we have had a subsequent letter back last Friday. Its always a friday last thing! Anyway the crux is there is a sudden change in tone from threats of suing and court injunctions. They have asked for a bit more info in regards to my conveyance details when I bought the house, not that these contain anything of use, but we suspect they are trying to find contradictions somewhere. But importantly they have said boundary arbitration is not the right thing at the moment as it will incur costs that may be unecessary once a review is completed. Also they acknowledge I could apply for adverse posession.

They have asked if they can survey my plot to confirm the measurements I sent from my deeds, which I have agreed to with some strict conditions. So fingers crossed we are on the home straight. I am also hoping that once they measure they will realise they cut down my tree without my consent. As to whether we pursue a claim or not I am yet undecided.

ps they have still not sent any evidence of their own as to why they believe my fence is 2m in the wrong.

despair
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Re: Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

Post by despair » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:20 pm

If you do allow them to measure do make sure you have independant witnesses on hand

arborlad
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Re: Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

Post by arborlad » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:04 am

70sThrowback wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:41 pm

They have asked if they can survey my plot to confirm the measurements I sent from my deeds, which I have agreed to with some strict conditions.



I can't see any disadvantage to this and would only stand you in good stead if this escalates. Not sure what 'strict' conditions you have imposed but I can only think of two, having sight of their third party insurance certificate and full contact details and accreditations of those attending.
arborlad

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Morgan Sweet
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Re: Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

Post by Morgan Sweet » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:03 am

To me (no legal qualifications whatsoever, but some experience in such disputes) it depends on where the LR boundary is. Now some on this forum wrongly state that you " buy what you see " but I can assure you that is NOT the case. You own what is shown on your LR title and it is up to the Developer to prove that the existing boundary is in the wrong place by submitting evidence. An historic boundary, however, is seldom denoted by an agricultural barbed wire/stock fence, a stock fence is to keep stock contained and is often yards from the boundary which may well be a ditch, hedge etc.. (From personal experience when erecting a barbed wire/stock fence 3 feet out from garden boundaries to stop cattle from leaning over into gardens I have later found that individuals have moved their fences up to this point.)

You naturally should be guided by and follow qualified legal advice and not give up anything that you legally own, but if it does escalate, perhaps consideration could be given for you and the Developer to agree (sharing the cost) to a 'joint declaration of the boundary' prepared by an independent RICS land surveyor and both accept the findings.

I do hope that it can all be resolved quickly and amicably as I know how it can all weigh on the private individual. It is a shame that the boundary disputes bill has not progressed due to the election of a new parliament.

arborlad
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Re: Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

Post by arborlad » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:03 am

Morgan Sweet wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:03 am
(From personal experience when erecting a barbed wire/stock fence 3 feet out from garden boundaries to stop cattle from leaning over into gardens I have later found that individuals have moved their fences up to this point.)



Is this your farm, what is the situation today?
arborlad

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Morgan Sweet
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Re: Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

Post by Morgan Sweet » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:36 am

arborlad wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:03 am
Morgan Sweet wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:03 am
(From personal experience when erecting a barbed wire/stock fence 3 feet out from garden boundaries to stop cattle from leaning over into gardens I have later found that individuals have moved their fences up to this point.)



Is this your farm, what is the situation today?
The situation was that the eight offenders removed their fences/garden rubbish back to where the LR title plan showed where the boundary exists. I was the tenant on this land at the time I erected the stock fence and subsequently it was the landowner who took immediate action via his company solicitor when they discovered the encroachment.

arborlad
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Re: Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

Post by arborlad » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:59 am

Morgan Sweet wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:36 am
arborlad wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:03 am
Morgan Sweet wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:03 am
(From personal experience when erecting a barbed wire/stock fence 3 feet out from garden boundaries to stop cattle from leaning over into gardens I have later found that individuals have moved their fences up to this point.)



Is this your farm, what is the situation today?
The situation was that the eight offenders removed their fences/garden rubbish back to where the LR title plan showed where the boundary exists. I was the tenant on this land at the time I erected the stock fence and subsequently it was the landowner who took immediate action via his company solicitor when they discovered the encroachment.



What was the timescale for this - did they have a 'determined' boundary?
arborlad

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Morgan Sweet
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Re: Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

Post by Morgan Sweet » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:21 pm

Arborlad, thank you for confirming the use of Glyphosate is perfectly legal.

Regarding your query, I do not know if the boundary was determined or not, however, I would have been most surprised to have learnt that it was. It was an remnant orchard behind a row of Victorian small terraced houses. As to time-scales, they stated dumping lawn cuttings and general garden rubbish soon after my erection of the barbed wire fence (erected to keep stock from reaching into their abutted gardens). I stopped renting the orchard (farming close to some people is seldom delightful) but the land owners asked me to flail top the orchard about three years later when I noticed the encroachment. The land owners' representative visited the site and spoke to most of the encroachers and then followed up with solicitor's letters. I noticed all rubbish and fences had been moved back in line when I next topped, this was approximately six months later.

arborlad
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Re: Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

Post by arborlad » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:37 pm

Morgan Sweet wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:21 pm
three years later when I noticed the encroachment. I noticed all rubbish and fences had been moved back in line when I next topped, this was approximately six months later.


It's important to compare like with like, your example of 3-1/2 yrs doesn't come close to the half century plus in this thread.
arborlad

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Morgan Sweet
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Re: Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

Post by Morgan Sweet » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:06 pm

arborlad wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:37 pm
Morgan Sweet wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:21 pm
three years later when I noticed the encroachment. I noticed all rubbish and fences had been moved back in line when I next topped, this was approximately six months later.


It's important to compare like with like, your example of 3-1/2 yrs doesn't come close to the half century plus in this thread.
I merely stated that you cannot rely on an agricultural fence to denote a legal boundary. You once more appear to read something into a post that is not there and adopt a rather pedantic stance based on you mis-comprehension.

arborlad
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Re: Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

Post by arborlad » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:25 pm

Morgan Sweet wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:06 pm

I merely stated that you cannot rely on an agricultural fence to denote a legal boundary.



That is correct, I have stated so myself.
arborlad

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arborlad
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Re: Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

Post by arborlad » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:31 pm

Morgan Sweet wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:36 am

The situation was that the eight offenders removed their fences/garden rubbish back to where the LR title plan showed where the boundary exists.



Only if that plan formed part of a Determined Boundary can it be used to establish the boundary more accurately, in all other respects the plan is to show which property you own, not where on that property the boundary lies - LR are very clear about this.
arborlad

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Morgan Sweet
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Re: Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

Post by Morgan Sweet » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:01 am

arborlad wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:31 pm
Morgan Sweet wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:36 am

The situation was that the eight offenders removed their fences/garden rubbish back to where the LR title plan showed where the boundary exists.



Only if that plan formed part of a Determined Boundary can it be used to establish the boundary more accurately, in all other respects the plan is to show which property you own, not where on that property the boundary lies - LR are very clear about this.
The LR title plan shows the general boundary that may show if an encroachment has taken place. If not then why do solicitors, surveyors, barristers seek this document as one of their first points of reference? I agree that a more accurate way to establish a boundary is to have it determined although a simple boundary agreement can also establish a more accurate position of the boundary. No plan is without tolerances. When involved in a boundary dispute the LR title plans will form part of any evidence submitted to a court or first tier LR tribunal. You seem to focus on the fact that as the plan cannot be used as an exact indication of the boundary it therefore can be disregarded as evidence of encroachment. I know that the plan shows the general boundary and in doing so, in many cases, can be used to show encroachment.

MacadamB53
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Re: Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

Post by MacadamB53 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:24 pm

Hi Morgan Sweet,

the plan shows the general boundary and in doing so, in many cases, can be used to show encroachment

substitute “many” with “some” and bob’s your uncle...

...the more critical factor in showing that encroachment has occurred would be the severity of said encroachment.

kind regards, Mac

arborlad
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Re: Developer Claiming Boundary is Incorrect

Post by arborlad » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:06 am

Morgan Sweet wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:21 pm
I noticed all rubbish and fences had been moved back in line when I next topped, this was approximately six months later.



..............in line with what?
arborlad

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