Legalising unregistered land

Post Reply
MacadamB53
Posts: 6670
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:13 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 100
Number of topics per page: 50

Re: Legalising unregistered land

Post by MacadamB53 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:36 pm

catapult1 wrote:Whether you want to access your back garden from this passage or not is imaterial. Make it accessable to show it is part of your curtaiage.

If you don't need or want it to access they why do you want it? ... To stop your neighbour accessing and making a legitimate access for his planned building. SO make it obviouse it is for your benifit. Otherwise it is a bit of land beside your house that no one owns and you don't need. Ergo he can or will want to use it for access.
+1 (see my last post)

olisun
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:44 am

Re: Legalising unregistered land

Post by olisun » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:11 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi olisun,

Now he wants to access the land which I have highlighted in Yellow and Blue in the following picture and I am atm more concerned about the land in Blue.

So just stop him by erecting a barrier across the bottom boundary of the red land - see my earlier suggestion about concrete panels.

If it were me, I would go the whole hog and brick up the top boundary beside your porch entrance. That way he and the rest of the world will get the message it is not an alleyway.

Hope this makes sense?

Kind regards, Mac
The builder is coming tomorrow morning to install a chain and lock due to the way the door is currently installed now. If I have to install a latch with a lock then it has to be done from the inside which defeats the whole purpose. I have requested him to be as discrete as possible.

I got a some plants in as I didn't realise how many I would be needing. But it's the begining.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2j2jckg.jpg

EDIT: Regarding the bricking up, my builder suggested the same but I can only do it after he has finished the work (atleast the rear part) so that it doesn't alert him.
Last edited by olisun on Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.

olisun
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:44 am

Re: Legalising unregistered land

Post by olisun » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:49 pm

catapult1 wrote:Whether you want to access your back garden from this passage or not is imaterial. Make it accessable to show it is part of your curtaiage.
I think there is a slight confusion over the length of the alleyway and the location of the entrance to my garden. My garden gate is located further down the alleyway outside the non-reg land and my gate opens in his land and lawfully I cannot fight for access to my garden from his property as I feel that is a losing battle.

I have attached some more pictures to try and explain it.

http://i43.tinypic.com/ztsvm9.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/8ybyvn.jpg

The following picture shows how the alleyway looks now.

http://i43.tinypic.com/hv7253.jpg

From the otherside

Before : http://i40.tinypic.com/2n9ksz.jpg

After : http://i39.tinypic.com/2nhgd3m.jpg
catapult1 wrote:If you don't need or want it to access they why do you want it? ... To stop your neighbour accessing and making a legitimate access for his planned building. SO make it obviouse it is for your benifit. Otherwise it is a bit of land beside your house that no one owns and you don't need. Ergo he can or will want to use it for access.
You mean the landlord can make a claim for both the blue and the yellow part?
catapult1 wrote:Just as an aside my oh, who deals with this sort of thing every day, says from the plan you provided (with the yellow and blue colour) it looks like in years way gone by there was possibly an alleyway there to the back of all the houses from 23 down the side of your property and that over time the houses have extended into this by fencing up to the other side.

The only ones not to have done are 23 and 25.

Alternatively the area in yellow and blue should have been the property of 23 and 25 and for some reason isn't and although in his opinion you would not be the obvious owner because your boundry further down is in line with the border of the disputed land, you might as well claim it as you have had exclusive use for so long.
I will be making a claim for the full land but at the end of the day even if I make a full claim I cannot make a claim to access my garden through his land. Because the non-reg land ends midway through the length of my property and my garden gate is further down. (see above).
catapult1 wrote:If the neigbours haven't used it and you don't use it what has been happening with it?
The neighbours haven't used it or don't use it because it is NOT part of their land as per the landregistry records and also they never felt the need for it. Same goes with no 27 and 29. I use it mostly in summer to cut the overhanging branches of the neighbours trees.

I hope it is much clearer now.

olisun
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:44 am

Re: Legalising unregistered land

Post by olisun » Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:59 pm

I forgot to ask one question, if I go and block the end of the yellow part with a brick, can the landlord raise an objection against it?

MacadamB53
Posts: 6670
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:13 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 100
Number of topics per page: 50

Re: Legalising unregistered land

Post by MacadamB53 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:03 pm

olisun wrote:I forgot to ask one question, if I go and block the end of the yellow part with a brick, can the landlord raise an objection against it?
Which end?

Could you please provide a plan of the actual layout as it will stand when he's finished - walls & fences solid lines, gates and doors dotted lines, colour code ownership (and assume you own all the non registered). This will help the forum (well, me at least...)

Kind regards, Mac

olisun
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:44 am

Re: Legalising unregistered land

Post by olisun » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:43 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:
olisun wrote:I forgot to ask one question, if I go and block the end of the yellow part with a brick, can the landlord raise an objection against it?
Which end?

Could you please provide a plan of the actual layout as it will stand when he's finished - walls & fences solid lines, gates and doors dotted lines, colour code ownership (and assume you own all the non registered). This will help the forum (well, me at least...)

Kind regards, Mac
The rear end of yellow which ends at the beginning of no 27

I will try and draw a proper layout but with 2 brats running creating havoc in the house, it's very difficult to sit on the comp.

Btw I have further modified the ariel map and marked the area with grey color, which now looks like the alleyway has been "extended" all the way to the end of no 29.

The grey area contains the 2 new doors.

http://i40.tinypic.com/23ijfkg.png

MacadamB53
Posts: 6670
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:13 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 100
Number of topics per page: 50

Re: Legalising unregistered land

Post by MacadamB53 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:53 pm

Hi olisun,

The latest plan really helps as it represents what is actually on the ground.

Securing the boundary where your yellow meets his grey is something you need to do as a matter of urgency.
This is precisely where I suggested you install a concrete fence - far easier and quicker than brickwork.
You might want to mortar the top gravel board on to prevent gym-man taking it down.

How wide is the parcel of land? (notice I'm not calling it an alley so people can't misunderstand me...)

Kind regards, Mac

olisun
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:44 am

Re: Legalising unregistered land

Post by olisun » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:03 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:Securing the boundary where your yellow meets his grey is something you need to do as a matter of urgency.
This is precisely where I suggested you install a concrete fence - far easier and quicker than brickwork.
You might want to mortar the top gravel board on to prevent gym-man taking it down.
I have spoken to my builder and will do it as soon as the landlord fixes the door on the properties and /or concentrates on the extension to the main house so as not to alert him.

I have also raised another objection with the council against the door which was created during the weekend and have told the council that we will be contacting a legal representative to take a second opinion without sounding like it is a threat.

My wife will be booking a appointment with the solicitor tomorrow.
MacadamB53 wrote:How wide is the parcel of land? (notice I'm not calling it an alley so people can't misunderstand me...)
Just wide enough for a average sized person to walk through without bumping against the walls until the begining of 27.

Before it was difficult even for a normal person to walk normally after that and he had to walk sideways but now whe you enter no 27 from the land then it's a bit wider than that un-reg land.

catapult1
Posts: 786
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:51 am
Location: Hampshire

Re: Legalising unregistered land

Post by catapult1 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:33 pm

So are you saying that the only way to legaly access this parcel of land is if you go through the front gate?

Before the build could you access it by way of your back gate (even if it was difficult) which is in fact adjacent to 27 or 29?

It does look more and more that you would not have been the intended owner of this land :( So get sorted soon :)

If you legaly have no other access to this land then don't block the outside entrance with plants etc as you have done as you may have to show that you use it. Even if it is to keep your bins. In fact put them in there now and put a padlock on the front so that only you have access from the front and no one with legal (or illegal) access can get out.
My answers are not of a legal nature, only what I consider to be common sense.

MacadamB53
Posts: 6670
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:13 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 100
Number of topics per page: 50

Re: Legalising unregistered land

Post by MacadamB53 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:51 pm

Hi olisun,

I have spoken to my builder and will do it as soon as the landlord fixes the door on the properties and /or concentrates on the extension to the main house so as not to alert him.

1. what will the builder do?
2. why must you wait?

This is what I would do tomorrow (assume width at least 3' 6"):

1. Call a local fencing supplier and order for immediate delivery - 2x 7' 9" intermediate grooved concrete posts, 2x 20kg bags of postcrete, 3x 6'x1' concrete gravel boards (cut in half so you have 6x 3'x1' boards) (cost about £65 + delivery charge)
2. Get a quote from same supplier for installation - how soon?
3. Get a few more quotes and chose based on price and how soon (£100 "tomorrow")
4. Clear area ready for fencing contractor

Or get a mate round and the two of you do it.

Kind regards, Mac

MacadamB53
Posts: 6670
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:13 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 100
Number of topics per page: 50

Re: Legalising unregistered land

Post by MacadamB53 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:00 am

Hi catapult,

It does look more and more that you would not have been the intended owner of this land

How do you work that out?

It's the OP's porch (built on the unregistered land) which is separating his back garden from the remaining parcel.

Furthermore, I don't see any shared alleys elsewhere on the OS map.

Kind regards, Mac

Anon
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 11:07 am

Re: Legalising unregistered land

Post by Anon » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:54 am

Hello olisun,

I really don't think that you should instruct anyone to do anything that will obstruct no. 27 from using the yellow and blue land to access the road from their gym-building as they are likely to have use of it as a right-of-way (additionally, no. 25 will have a similar right of way).

I've looked at the streets on http://www.old-maps.co.uk/ and 25 and 27 appear to have a clearly implied easement/right-of-way (it doesn't need to be in their deeds).

You should really have the section of wall between the blue land and the pavement removed if I am correct.

I'll post a more detailed post if I have the time.

Anon.

catapult1
Posts: 786
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:51 am
Location: Hampshire

Re: Legalising unregistered land

Post by catapult1 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:05 am

MacadamB53 wrote:Hi catapult,

It does look more and more that you would not have been the intended owner of this land

How do you work that out?

It's the OP's porch (built on the unregistered land) which is separating his back garden from the remaining parcel.

Furthermore, I don't see any shared alleys elsewhere on the OS map.

Kind regards, Mac
The OPs porch hasn't been built on the unregistered land it has been built next to it on the red area which is his. The unregistered land is next to that.

What has been built on the unregistered land is his paved area in front of his house beside the porch and in front of the gate to the unregistered land.

Because The OPs garden wall is in line with his porch at the front (where the red is on his drawing). From the back of the back garden to the front of his porch is a straight line. If you include the unregistered land (blue and yellow) it would have a dog leg at the front not in keeping with the properties. Because the grey area has extended the blue/yellow area to make it even more likely (though not definate) that there may have been, at some point in the past, an access or at least an area behind the properties. Although there were sheds on part of the land before, even one of the POs photos shows that at some points access (again albeit difficult) was possible along the way. Indeed the OP has a gate in his fence further up towards 27/29 that he has used to access the land running along the area in the past.

If the OP (previous owner) hadn't paved the front and put a fence to the pavement or a gate there would have been access for houses 29, 27, 25, 23 to the road (and who knows, perhaps in the distant past there may have been the same for more houses but they gradually included the land into their own gardens). This may or may not have been intended and as seems likely from the OPs statements these owners/occupiers haven't accessed it but it does look that he was not the intended only user or owner.

If there is no registered ROW on any of the os maps or the difinative ROW plan or on any of the deeds of 29, 27, 25 and 23 or in fact his own then he who gets in first will be the winner :)

As already stated by most posters, he has to stop Gym man from gaining access then get an application in for adverse possession as soon as possible.

I can't remember reading if the OP has check deeds and row etc?
My answers are not of a legal nature, only what I consider to be common sense.

catapult1
Posts: 786
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:51 am
Location: Hampshire

Re: Legalising unregistered land

Post by catapult1 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:43 am

Just had a look and with the OPs plan and a look on GE I still think the land should have been either allocated to 23 and 25 or been a row for 23 to perhaps even 29.

You really do need to check this out properly.

As I stated in my previous post the OP (previous owner) encroached onto the unregistered land and potentialy blocked a row and if there is a defined row or access right then even if the OP blocks either entrance he could be in trouble.
My answers are not of a legal nature, only what I consider to be common sense.

olisun
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:44 am

Re: Legalising unregistered land

Post by olisun » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:34 am

I have posted the the letter from the land registry a few posts back and also checked the deeds of all the houses.

I can't find any information of ROW anywhere.

Until recently 27/29 couldn't / didn't access the the unregistered land because they had their own fence. It's only now that after the build they can access it easily.

Previously only I could access it easily from the front and not so easily from the rear.

Btw the previous owner had put plants in front of the gate as you can see it from the estate agents advertisement.

I will post some of the answers later from office.

Post Reply