Copies of originally deeds any good?

mr sheen
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Post by mr sheen » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:46 pm

The surveyor will be jointly instructed so it can be made clear that the purpose is to seek to determine the boundary by reference to all evidence. Both sides provide what they have.
Sometimes both parties agree beforehand to abide by the outcome and make a formal agreement based upon the jointly instructed report......sometimes proposing this puts the other side off especially if their evidence is a bit contrived.....if they object it weakens their position, so if you are happy to accept an independent determination, then put the proposal in writing so that your offer can be brought up later if they refuse.

despair
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Post by despair » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:42 am

Excellent way fwd suggested by Mrsheen


Be sure that the boundary expert is truly independant and not a contact or mate of the current questionable one

mango1
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Post by mango1 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:16 pm

Hi, This is still rumbling on, neighbour has instructed a different surveyor now as his first surveyor stated that the original conveyance would take precedent, in this second report the surveyor has not had access to any of the conveyance documents that we sent to his solicitor so it is very limited/biased, again he wants a meeting to negotiate a settlement.

I have found an email that was sent to me by my neighbour saying that he would move part for the fence back , and apologising that it was not built on the boundary. Is there anyway one of you can take a look at this email in private without pasting in it full? I believe he is accepting liability in this email and it could mean we could just go straight to court. Is there any damage in pasting it in full?

Thanks for all the advice.

Roblewis
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Post by Roblewis » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:51 am

Your first step is to advise his solicitors that you will only accept an independent jointly appointed surveyor to report on the boundary location. Do not make any other statements in this letter, keep it short and sweet.

The email and any evidence you have re the change of surveyor and the reasons for this should also be placed in the hands of any surveyor. You could send a separate letter to his sols stating that you have information and outline very briefly its contents but do not send any copies just yet. They will ask if they want it.

mango1
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Post by mango1 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:12 pm

We responded to his solicitor suggesting that this dispute was settled by appointing a joint surveyor and that we both agree to use the findings of that surveyor. His solicitor did not respond. A few months later the neighbour contacted our surveyor and suggested a joint meeting again to go though his new report. We agreed to this and it went very well, his surveyor agreed to use some of our surveyor's key measurements as they had been taken using proper surveying equipment rather than a tape measure and the agreement was (simplified) that the boundary was where we have always said it was, give or take a few inches.

We sent an email a few weeks later saying we would like a determined boundary added to our title and asked them to agree. They responded saying that they had re-measured the key measurements with a tape measure and that they are 3 feet out, totally reneging on the agreement, and that another point should be measured from a wall, there is no documentary evidence at all to support this. He has requested to settle the dispute by negotiation, and it seems this is just bluff to put doubt into our minds.

I have asked our surveyor to prepare a determined boundary report which I submitted unilaterally to the land registry, hoping it would be referred to the First Tier Tribunal so their objections could be tested before a 3rd party. The LR have refused the application as there is an ongoing dispute, although this is not in the LR rules for a valid reason to reject a determined boundary application , I see little point arguing with civil servants.

It now seems clear that a 3rd party will have to decide this dispute, probably at large cost. I believe I can apply to the FTT by an application to change my title documents and add the determined boundary to it, is this a possible way forward? I am keen to use the tribunal rather than county court so save costs. The dimensioned nature of the deeds is very similar to other cases that the FTT has ruled on.

I would also still be willing to accept an independent surveyors decision, as the evidence is so clear. Is it possible for one side to ask a court to appoint a surveyor to resolve the dispute? I can see how this would look less hostile than attempting to enforce one sides boundary plan, and would be very difficult to argue against. If so is this something the FTT can do, or would be have to go to a county court?
Thanks for all your help

arborlad
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Post by arborlad » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:55 am

mango1 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:12 pm

I have asked our surveyor to prepare a determined boundary report which I submitted unilaterally to the land registry, hoping it would be referred to the First Tier Tribunal so their objections could be tested before a 3rd party. The LR have refused the application as there is an ongoing dispute, although this is not in the LR rules for a valid reason to reject a determined boundary application , I see little point arguing with civil servants.



Two requirements for a determined boundary are drawings certified to an accuracy of 10mm and an agreement from the neighbour, your surveyor should know both of these.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

mr sheen
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Post by mr sheen » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:44 am

You have to prove your case in court if the position of the boundary is not agreed with the neighbour.

Morgan Sweet
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Post by Morgan Sweet » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:25 pm

mango1 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:12 pm
We responded to his solicitor suggesting that this dispute was settled by appointing a joint surveyor and that we both agree to use the findings of that surveyor. His solicitor did not respond. A few months later the neighbour contacted our surveyor and suggested a joint meeting again to go though his new report. We agreed to this and it went very well, his surveyor agreed to use some of our surveyor's key measurements as they had been taken using proper surveying equipment rather than a tape measure and the agreement was (simplified) that the boundary was where we have always said it was, give or take a few inches.
May I ask, was this agreement on the boundary position put into written correspondence?

arborlad
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Post by arborlad » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:31 am

mango1 wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:12 pm
We responded to his solicitor suggesting that this dispute was settled by appointing a joint surveyor and that we both agree to use the findings of that surveyor. His solicitor did not respond. A few months later the neighbour contacted our surveyor and suggested a joint meeting again to go though his new report. We agreed to this and it went very well, his surveyor agreed to use some of our surveyor's key measurements as they had been taken using proper surveying equipment rather than a tape measure and the agreement was (simplified) that the boundary was where we have always said it was, give or take a few inches.


Have a read of this thread: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3149


There is nothing inherently inaccurate about a tape measure and nothing about the modern devices that makes them more accurate. The big plus for modern equipment is in its convenience, one person can move around a site and take readings but both will fail if not used (or interpreted) correctly.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

mango1
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Post by mango1 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:15 pm

Two requirements for a determined boundary are drawings certified to an accuracy of 10mm and an agreement from the neighbour, your surveyor should know both of these.
Arborlad , you can apply for a determined boundary without your neighbour's approval, see Practice Guide 40, 4.2
If so satisfied, the registrar must give the adjoining owner(s) notice of the application, unless the evidence relied on and lodged with the application includes an agreement in writing with the adjoining owner as to the line of the boundary or a court order determining the line of the boundary. Panel 9 of form DB should be completed where there is agreement by the adjoining owner.


So the registrar should give notice of the application, if there is an objection and no agreement can be reached the LR should refer to the FTT.

mango1
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Post by mango1 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:43 pm

Morgan Sweet wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:25 pm

May I ask, was this agreement on the boundary position put into written correspondence?
[/quote]

It was put into an email , but the response was to disagree with the point to measure from and that the measurements were now wrong, after previously verbally agreeing them. This measurement has now been taken several times by 4 (including the original) surveyors using both tape measures and theodolites and the only person to get a different reading is this guy. They will not accept appointing an independent RICS surveyor to resolve the boundary as they want to negotiate as they have already encroached so just want to increase their land grab.

Hence my unanswered question, can you ask a court to appoint a surveyor to determine the boundary position, or must you first seek to enforce your version of where the boundary lies, I would assume the former would be less risky in terms of costs as you could never be wrong. Where as if i went to court and the court found that my boundary report was 2" out then I would have technically be wrong and have to pay costs although the out come would be satisfactory.

IdefixUK
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Post by IdefixUK » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:47 pm

I found this which might explain the LR's actions in your case.
Boundary agreements and determined boundaries (PG40s4)
Updates.
8 Feb 2016. Section 4 has been amended to refer to a recent Upper Tribunal decision which stated that the purpose of the determined boundaries procedure is to provide "accurate public records as to the position of the boundary of a registered parcel of land" rather than " resolving boundary disputes between neighbour's".

Regards

mango1
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Post by mango1 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:05 pm

IdefixUK wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:47 pm
I found this which might explain the LR's actions in your case.
Boundary agreements and determined boundaries (PG40s4)
Updates.
8 Feb 2016. Section 4 has been amended to refer to a recent Upper Tribunal decision which stated that the purpose of the determined boundaries procedure is to provide "accurate public records as to the position of the boundary of a registered parcel of land" rather than " resolving boundary disputes between neighbour's".

Regards
How was this case referred then, after an application for a determined boundary in September 2016?
http://landregistrationdivision.decisio ... 7-0247.pdf

IdefixUK
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Re: Copies of originally deeds any good?

Post by IdefixUK » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:02 pm

Mango.
Take a look at an article written by Simon Brilliant on the lambschambers.co.uk site. Property: Murdoch v Amesbury revisited.
It seems to imply that the info supplied by LR about not being able to use determined boundaries where a dispute was raging received an early challenge!

Might it be worth re-contacting LR with your case?...always remember to ask for the advice of the person to whom you speak. about what routes might be open to you to pursue in your particular case.

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