Tile deeds v HM Registry

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clarry69
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Tile deeds v HM Registry

Post by clarry69 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:54 pm

Hi all

I live in an ex Council end of terrace house that has a distance of approx 18' between mine and my neighbours house, from moving in they stated they owned 3/4 of the drive from the back gates halfway down our houses to the street. This if protected would stop us accessing our rear with vehicles, but, as an old lady lived there she always allowed us to cross this small part of the 'drive' so we could park our campervan in our rear garden. (We have been neighbours for 20 years)

Her daughter has now took over the house and is extending to the edge of our boundaries, she has asked to overhang their guttering 6"-12" over our side of the border, when i refused she said they will erect a fence on the drive so we could no longer have vehicular access to our rear (very nice lady!!).

I contacted our Solicitor to try to find out exactly where the division is on the drive so that when they erected the fence it would be in the right place, they have sent back a copy of our title deeds issued when we purchased the property from the council that shows our boundary as the whole rectangle - thus showing we own the 1/2 of the whole drive to the front.
I ordered a copy of the plans from HM Land Registry and they show different, they show our neighbours do in fact own 3/4 of the drive. My neighbour has also now forwarded a letter from her Solicitor stating this fact.

Are my title deeds correct? or is the Land Registry? Which would stand up as legal in a court?
Could the Council have sold the land twice? Can i sure the Council for compensation?
Does my neighbour have any automatic right to access my garden for their building works? or can I stop them?


I also have large metal gates that secure the rear of my property, these hang from a metal post that is just inside their property line. The gates were made for me by my neighbours son and cost circa £500. They hang off the post as it was in situ and supported their matching gates which were there when mine were made. My new neighbour has told me they are removing the post and therefore my custom made gates.

Can I insist they do this at a convenient time for us both?
Can i insist they secure my property until new gates are fitted?
Can I insist they replace with like for like at their cost? I have taken photographic evidence just in case.

This new build is a nightmare for us as is causing untold disturbance and mess and distress to us. Sorry for the long post.

Thanks for your help

Clarry69
Last edited by clarry69 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Collaborate
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Re: Tile deeds v HM Regitry

Post by Collaborate » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:09 pm

Look at the deeds to your property and next door's. Look at whose purchase from the LA came first. If theirs came first then the LA never owned all the land purported to be included in the sale. If your came first then the land registry has made an error, and you need to look at either claiming compensation or rectification.

clarry69
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Re: Tile deeds v HM Registry

Post by clarry69 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:17 pm

Thanks for the reply, The neighbours deeds were first and as i stated it was always believed that they owned the land in question so it looks like a mistake by the LA.

ukmicky
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Re: Tile deeds v HM Registry

Post by ukmicky » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:37 am

As these houses were ex local authority housing the house next door would have been sold subject to any access rights the neighboring land had over their land before the transfer. The chances are your land and their land would have had the right to use both sides of the driveway to access the rear of the properties.

These rights are called quasi-easements and may not be expressly noted on your title deeds. Look at there register of title for next door and see if there is anything mentioning easements or the Housing Act 1980 or Housing Act 1985. If there is nothing see if there is anything saying copy filed


If there is an easement and the chances are there is ,nothing can be erected on the driveway not even her extension.

I will leave this one to pilman (if I may Pilman) as I'm busy packing for my trip to Australia in 24 hours .
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

pilman
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Re: Tile deeds v HM Registry

Post by pilman » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:05 pm

If you have obtained a copy of the neighbour's register of title, was there a reference to the original conveyance from the council when the right to buy was exercised.

Often there is a reference to this deed and the words "Copy Filed" are included.

That means it is possible to apply to Land Registry Citizens Centre using a form OC2 and sending a cheque for £7.
Download the form OC2 from the LR web-site and show the title number of the neighbours property.
Then complete the section that asks what you want a copy of .
i.e. Transfer (or Conveyance) dated ??/??/19?? (Copied from the information on the Register of title)
Include the cheque for £7 and post to Land Registry Citizens Centre, PO Box 74, Gloucester GL14 9BB.

When you receive a copy of that original deed that is when you will know for sure what was included in that sale to the sitting tenant at that time.

You can then compare the plan with the one that would have been on the original transfer or conveyance when you bought from the Council.

If you have any problems understanding anything send me an e-mail and will offer free advice to you, or just keep posting and I will reply via the forum.
enquiries@pilmanlegalservices.co.uk

clarry69
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Re: Tile deeds v HM Registry

Post by clarry69 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:49 am

Thanks so much for the replies ukmicky and pilman.

I've now seen the neighbours deeds and the Land Registry which proves that they do indeed own the 3/4 of the drive as they said. I have been back in touch with my Solicitor who dealt with our house purchase and they are investigating why the LA issued deeds showing we had purchased the full rectangle.

When we moved into our Council house, as it was, 20 years ago we asked about the drive and were told we had pedestrian access only across the part of the drive that was on our side but owned by them, they gave us a plan with the spurious land coloured and an attached notice mentioning pedestrian easement. This was on plain unheaded paper so is now irelevent. When i recently asked the Council for confirmation of this they stated that as the property had been sold it was no longer their concern. It looks like this is a lost cause and an error has been made by our LA when issuing the plans.


When asked to sign the Party Wall Agreement we naively signed even though there was no scope of works or timetable, tbh we had always got on really well with our neighbours and thought this would continue. We didn't realise the size of their work and the inconvenience it would cause us. We also underestimated how selfish they would be.

They have said verbally they have right to access our property for the building work and to erect scaffold because the Party wall Agreement was signed, is this correct or can I stop them / charge them rent for the time of the intrusion?

Also they have removed the fence panels between our properties, as we have a small dog this means we have to be careful when she is in the garden. This is impacting on our enjoyment of the garden especially now the weather is turning. Can we demand the fence line is secured? (it is their fence).

Many thanks for your advice and help.

John

Roblewis
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Re: Tile deeds v HM Registry

Post by Roblewis » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:22 am

The OP appears to be stating that the LA wrongfully sold land that had previously been sold to the neighbour. It was an error but it is also a culpable error that has come to light. You now have 6 years to start action against the LA. I also suspect that the reference to pedestrian access applies also to the neighbour and as such gives no automatic right other than on foot NOT for work. Signature of a PWA does not also allow any work they choose - it is a matter of negotiation between your party wall surveyor, paid for by them, and their PW surveyor. Tell them clearly that they must firstly employ a PWS of your choice to act for you and then agree any plan of work and relevant charges etc.

jdfi
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Re: Tile deeds v HM Registry

Post by jdfi » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:52 am

For how many years has your camper had vehicular access to the back garden?

clarry69
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Re: Tile deeds v HM Registry

Post by clarry69 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:16 am

Hi
We have had vehicular access for approx 5 years.
Cheers

Collaborate
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Re: Tile deeds v HM Registry

Post by Collaborate » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:11 am

If you have followed Pilman's advice and obtained a copy of the conveyance by which next door's property was acquired from the council you need to look at what was "excepted and reserved" to the vendors. It is possible, if not likely, that the LA reserved to itself all implied rights of access. this is something that, given the repercussions, you'd be best putting before a solicitor for advice.

arborlad
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Re: Tile deeds v HM Registry

Post by arborlad » Thu May 31, 2018 1:13 pm

Best continued here:

clarry69 wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 12:49 pm
My neighbour has an extension in progress and owns approx 3/4 of our shared drive.
This used to have a dividing fence that showed where the split was (so I thought).
They have now drawn lines to show the boundary as an extra 12” onto my ‘side’ and intend to develop the area. This leaves me a 4’6” walkway to my rear which was 5’6”.
They said they are working off Land Registry which gives dimensions and say they had to pay extra for the dimensions to go on the plans.
I have yet to see the these plans although they have said they will forward them imminently.
Are they correct?
Thanks
John
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

MacadamB53
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Re: Tile deeds v HM Registry

Post by MacadamB53 » Thu May 31, 2018 2:10 pm

Hi clarry69,

Are they correct?

the answer is “no” unless:

it’s a ‘determined boundary’ https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... boundaries

otherwise they are simply asserting a claim (which they may or may not have good evidence to support).

imho this has all the hallmarks of someone wanting more than they know they have...

kind regards, Mac

Collaborate
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Re: Tile deeds v HM Registry

Post by Collaborate » Thu May 31, 2018 7:24 pm

Bloody hell why do people start new threads unnecessarily?

ukmicky
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Re: Tile deeds v HM Registry

Post by ukmicky » Thu May 31, 2018 11:54 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 2:10 pm
Hi clarry69,

Are they correct?

the answer is “no” unless:

it’s a ‘determined boundary’ https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... boundaries

otherwise they are simply asserting a claim (which they may or may not have good evidence to support).

imho this has all the hallmarks of someone wanting more than they know they have...

kind regards, Mac
Totally agree
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

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