Transfer Part 1 - red edging

teepeeone
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:14 am

Transfer Part 1 - red edging

Post by teepeeone »

Hi,

1st time post so will follow with pictures after a few posts. My neighbour/s and I all have the same TP1/deed with same 1:500 conveyance plan (albeit different plot) submitted into LR and the neighbour believes the physical boundary installed by the developer is correct - it's out by a good bit between our houses, obv to our detriment. All the filed deeds/site plans/fencing plans etc seen and signed (by us and in OC2 for next door) match the plans submitted to LR but the title plan that came back shows the incorrect physical boundary we are looking to get correct by the developer currently.
I've read a good deal about general boundaries in their inaccuracies, not to be used as definitive boundaries .. but the neighbour thinks it's their land - looks like this may be a expensive 'do' all round as they're not looking at the evidence and I think it'll need solicitors/court..any experiences? It's a shame as this issue had made it awkward with a next door - it's the developers fault and we're all new neighbours.

T
teepeeone
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:14 am

Re: Transfer Part 1 - red edging

Post by teepeeone »

To add, the filed deeds for each property has the identical 1:500 plan attached and the Transfer of Part - "3. The property is identified [x] the attached plan and shown Edged Red
span
Posts: 1707
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:34 am

Re: Transfer Part 1 - red edging

Post by span »

Best bet is to force everything through the the developer, let him be the bad guy here and you and your neighbor the common victims. Make him remediate the situation.

If that fails, them you can take on the neighbor yourself.
teepeeone
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:14 am

Re: Transfer Part 1 - red edging

Post by teepeeone »

Thanks Span, that's the plan and I'd spoke to the neighbour saying this - don't want the developer to 'win' on this and neither us or neighbour should be out of pocket really - it'd easily be a few thousand £ to move the boundary privately so not sure how that'd work if things didn't work out well for the developer to do the remediation.
Collaborate
Posts: 2119
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: Transfer Part 1 - red edging

Post by Collaborate »

So what you're saying is that the plans on the TP1 are materially different to the boundaries on the title plan? If so, that was for your solicitor to check when title came back from the Land Registry.

What plan do the physical boundaries differ from?
teepeeone
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:14 am

Re: Transfer Part 1 - red edging

Post by teepeeone »

Hi,

The solicitor had submitted the transfer plan/TP1 w/deeds to LR on completion, it's new transfer from the developer to LR so the parcel of land wasn't registered before completion. The title plan that came back was done/dated a couple of months after completion on the physical boundary

So physical boundary was 'mapped' by OS after legal completion which doesn't match the files deeds/transfer part one, with attached plan & red edging.

T
Collaborate
Posts: 2119
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: Transfer Part 1 - red edging

Post by Collaborate »

It's quite common that in a new build estate the builder will have a plan showing provisional boundaries that may well alter when the fencer/builder gets on site and builds the fences where more appropriate.
teepeeone
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:14 am

Re: Transfer Part 1 - red edging

Post by teepeeone »

The developer has now sent confirmation to us that the fence has been installed in the wrong position, and a copy of each plots conveyance saying this is the land that has been purchased with the plot and not the land registry survey that just recorded what is on the ground. The developer also gave 2 options - all agree to leave everything as is and change conveyance plans/legals/LR or all agree to move the fence and have the LR resurvey and update their records. We're obviously looking at getting the fence reinstalled on the correct line, as we all signed for on the conveyance/site/fence/constructions plans.
The neighbour is convinced the land is theirs saying they have title absolute and this is the trump card and aren't budging and are going to tell the same to the developer. They have been advised by a solicitor.

I'm really interested to hear comments/advice on this.

See attached pics showing conveyance plan which was submitted to LR/attached to TP1 - and the LR title plan 'image'

Thanks

T
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Collaborate
Posts: 2119
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: Transfer Part 1 - red edging

Post by Collaborate »

What is important is the plan that was attached to your TR1. Is that what you posted? It seems imprecise. There is a dotted line, but nothing forward of the front of your plot.
teepeeone
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:14 am

Re: Transfer Part 1 - red edging

Post by teepeeone »

Apologies..Ive attached the conveyance plan showing red edge..its just an extension of the dotted line. this is the plan attached and referred to in the TP1 and is in the filed deeds
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Collaborate
Posts: 2119
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: Transfer Part 1 - red edging

Post by Collaborate »

What was the precise wording in the transfer deed that referred to that plan you've just posted?
teepeeone
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:14 am

Re: Transfer Part 1 - red edging

Post by teepeeone »

Hi,

Thanks for following up. First page of transfer deed below..this is the exact same wording as the neighbours with exact same plan attached, red line around their plot and their plot and address referenced.
PhotoEditor_20190303_071716193-711x539.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Collaborate
Posts: 2119
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: Transfer Part 1 - red edging

Post by Collaborate »

That's interesting. The TP1 does not say that the plan is for identification only, and it seems to be reasonably precise such that a layman would not feel it necessary to visit the property to see what they were buying.

Have a look at this: http://www.guildhallchambers.co.uk/file ... er2012.pdf

Under the case of Cameron v Boggiano and Robertson there is the following passage:
Ordinarily therefore, where the transfer and the transfer plan were clear and unambiguous a mismatch between the plan and the topographical features on the ground was not sufficient of itself to depart from the title documents.
Incidentally, the reference to this case comes from the Land Registry website - see para 4 of this https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... pplement-3
wtc
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:40 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 50
Number of topics per page: 50

Re: Transfer Part 1 - red edging

Post by wtc »

As a layperson, but one who has been wronged by a developer putting a boundary feature parallel to something when it should not have been, I would also be expecting each buyer to get what they reasonably expected to buy. If detailed plans were shown and all parties signed their names to them then each should get something aligned to that. Though one party dragging its heels, or saying no, has no automatic way of overriding them.

Can I ask a few questions based on those plans? I assume there was no Determined Boundary - these are very rare and possibly what you would aim to have done but only once this is all sorted out (at developer's cost)?

Looking at those plans, do they mean that you are plot 131, and feel you have lost a triangle of front garden, but actually have gained a triangle of back garden? Though I could understand that the bit at the front could be more valuable in increasing the amount of parking. Has the developer made any attempt to measure communicate the extent of the error? Is there a chance the neighbour thinks he is only going to 'lose' land?

There is mention of a fence that I assume is in the back garden, but does it continue beyond the dashed line into the front, or is there otherwise any boundary feature in the front?

What is the hatched area at the bottom of the garden, with something also highlighted on the title plan. Are plots 106 and 107 now completed, but were they still under development at the time?

The neighbour might have seen a solicitor but might be calling your bluff. Even if they have seen one, you do not know what the solicitor actually advised - quite possibly not the title absolute nonsense.
teepeeone
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:14 am

Re: Transfer Part 1 - red edging

Post by teepeeone »

Collaborate wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:05 pm That's interesting. The TP1 does not say that the plan is for identification only, and it seems to be reasonably precise such that a layman would not feel it necessary to visit the property to see what they were buying.

Have a look at this: http://www.guildhallchambers.co.uk/file ... er2012.pdf

Under the case of Cameron v Boggiano and Robertson there is the following passage:
Ordinarily therefore, where the transfer and the transfer plan were clear and unambiguous a mismatch between the plan and the topographical features on the ground was not sufficient of itself to depart from the title documents.
Incidentally, the reference to this case comes from the Land Registry website - see para 4 of this https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... pplement-3
Thanks Collaborate, I'd seen the govt para before and had made a note of that but not read the case in detail - I have now thanks.
Post Reply