Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

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MacadamB53
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Re: Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

Post by MacadamB53 »

Hi vegansavage,

Fences that were intended to be party-line, as in on the boundary.

and round we go again...

where are you getting the bit in bold from? if it’s the planning app you need to have a rethink because it will not hold up in court.

kind regards, Mac
geordiepete
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Re: Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

Post by geordiepete »

MacadamB53 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:10 pm Hi vegansavage,

Fences that were intended to be party-line, as in on the boundary.

and round we go again...

where are you getting the bit in bold from? if it’s the planning app you need to have a rethink because it will not hold up in court.

kind regards, Mac
Why not? I don’t understand why it doesn’t show the developers intent? What is a party-line fence?
MacadamB53
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Re: Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

Post by MacadamB53 »

Hi vegansavage,

What is a party-line fence

it’s just the phrasing chosen by your LPA and/or the developer when referring to those fences in the planning app - it does not carry any other meaning and does not evidence that the developer intended the fences to mark the legal boundaries.

why wasn’t a fence erected across the road so that you can enjoy all of your land to yourself?!?

kind regards, Mac
geordiepete
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Re: Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

Post by geordiepete »

MacadamB53 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:44 pm Hi vegansavage,

What is a party-line fence

it’s just the phrasing chosen by your LPA and/or the developer when referring to those fences in the planning app - it does not carry any other meaning and does not evidence that the developer intended the fences to mark the legal boundaries.

why wasn’t a fence erected across the road so that you can enjoy all of your land to yourself?!?

kind regards, Mac
So you're saying a party-line fence is not a party-line fence? The developer could have simply stated fencing, they didn't, it was suppose to mark the boundary.

I've no idea what you mean by 'why wasn’t a fence erected across the road so that you can enjoy all of your land to yourself?!?'.

There was an enclosed fence to my neighbour's back garden, about 5 metres in from the kerb, but they had planning permission to extend their garden.
MacadamB53
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Re: Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

Post by MacadamB53 »

vegansavage wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:48 pm
MacadamB53 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:44 pm Hi vegansavage,

What is a party-line fence

it’s just the phrasing chosen by your LPA and/or the developer when referring to those fences in the planning app - it does not carry any other meaning and does not evidence that the developer intended the fences to mark the legal boundaries.

why wasn’t a fence erected across the road so that you can enjoy all of your land to yourself?!?

kind regards, Mac
So you're saying a party-line fence is not a party-line fence? The developer could have simply stated fencing, they didn't, it was suppose to mark the boundary.

I've no idea what you mean by 'why wasn’t a fence erected across the road so that you can enjoy all of your land to yourself?!?'.

There was an enclosed fence to my neighbour's back garden, about 5 metres in from the kerb, but they had planning permission to extend their garden.
not all fences in the development are from memory, standing out in front of your neighbour’s property - there’s a road running down the left side of his property, yes?

you claim the land laid out as a road lies entirely within the boundaries of your property, yes?

so why isn’t it fenced off to the outside world and incorporated into your garden? why wasn’t a “party-line” fence needed in this location? why did the land laid out as a road need to be kept “open plan”?
geordiepete
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Re: Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

Post by geordiepete »

MacadamB53 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:18 pm
vegansavage wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:48 pm
MacadamB53 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:44 pm Hi vegansavage,

What is a party-line fence

it’s just the phrasing chosen by your LPA and/or the developer when referring to those fences in the planning app - it does not carry any other meaning and does not evidence that the developer intended the fences to mark the legal boundaries.

why wasn’t a fence erected across the road so that you can enjoy all of your land to yourself?!?

kind regards, Mac
So you're saying a party-line fence is not a party-line fence? The developer could have simply stated fencing, they didn't, it was suppose to mark the boundary.

I've no idea what you mean by 'why wasn’t a fence erected across the road so that you can enjoy all of your land to yourself?!?'.

There was an enclosed fence to my neighbour's back garden, about 5 metres in from the kerb, but they had planning permission to extend their garden.
not all fences in the development are from memory, standing out in front of your neighbour’s property - there’s a road running down the left side of his property, yes?

you claim the land laid out as a road lies entirely within the boundaries of your property, yes?

so why isn’t it fenced off to the outside world and incorporated into your garden? why wasn’t a “party-line” fence needed in this location? why did the land laid out as a road need to be kept “open plan”?
The road leads to just the front of my house, who in the outside world would use it? I am claiming it was fenced in to the outside world, the road made up and the only dropped kerb was to my driveway. There is a party-line fence, I can see it, as I keep saying, and I was told when buying the house that it was a shared boundary. Why is that fence not on the shared boundary? I've seen no evidence that the fence is not the one intended by the developers.
alyson
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Re: Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

Post by alyson »

alyson wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:02 pm
vegansavage wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:47 pm
alyson wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:41 pm Forgive me if I'm wrong but I don't think the question has been asked:

Why does it matter?
Because it's infringing.
Again, why does it matter?
Does it restrict you in any way?
What could you do if there were no gate that you can't do now?
Please answer!
What does the presence of the gate restrict you from doing????????
MacadamB53
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Re: Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

Post by MacadamB53 »

Hi vegansavage,

you seem to be missing the point...

if the land between the two gardens that is made up as a road - the short spur - is wholly part of your property, why is it not enclosed and incorporated into the rest of your property?

how was your own garden fence - the one between your garden and “your” road - referred to in the planning app?

kind regards, Mac
geordiepete
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Re: Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

Post by geordiepete »

MacadamB53 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:59 pm Hi vegansavage,

you seem to be missing the point...

if the land between the two gardens that is made up as a road - the short spur - is wholly part of your property, why is it not enclosed and incorporated into the rest of your property?

how was your own garden fence - the one between your garden and “your” road - referred to in the planning app?

kind regards, Mac
How would the road be enclosed and incorporated into my property? There is a hedge, a fence and the gate (which doesn't have a dropped kerb) on the other side of the road. Other than the gate, the road is enclosed - and is enclosed when this gate is shut. It would have been fully enclosed if the fence planned had been erected as permitted.

I don't have a fence on the side of the road nearest to my house. The only fence is on the other side of the road, which according to my deeds is a shared boundary.
Last edited by geordiepete on Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
geordiepete
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Re: Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

Post by geordiepete »

alyson wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:44 pm
alyson wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:02 pm
vegansavage wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:47 pm

Because it's infringing.
Again, why does it matter?
Does it restrict you in any way?
What could you do if there were no gate that you can't do now?
Please answer!
What does the presence of the gate restrict you from doing????????
I'm not really sure how to answer. If you buy one thing but it's potentially not what you thought, then you'd look in to it. My biggest concern is future development, over something I didn't even consider was possible.
MacadamB53
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Re: Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

Post by MacadamB53 »

vegansavage wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:08 pm
MacadamB53 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:59 pm Hi vegansavage,

you seem to be missing the point...

if the land between the two gardens that is made up as a road - the short spur - is wholly part of your property, why is it not enclosed and incorporated into the rest of your property?

how was your own garden fence - the one between your garden and “your” road - referred to in the planning app?

kind regards, Mac
How would the road be enclosed and incorporated into my property? There is a hedge, a fence and the gate (which doesn't have a dropped kerb) on the other side of the road. Other than the gate, the road is enclosed - and is enclosed when this gate is shut. It would have been fully enclosed if the fence planned had been erected as permitted.

I don't have a fence on the side of the road nearest to my house. The only fence is on the other side of the road, which according to my deeds is a shared boundary.
did the planning app include your property?
geordiepete
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Re: Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

Post by geordiepete »

MacadamB53 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:25 pm
vegansavage wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:08 pm
MacadamB53 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:59 pm Hi vegansavage,

you seem to be missing the point...

if the land between the two gardens that is made up as a road - the short spur - is wholly part of your property, why is it not enclosed and incorporated into the rest of your property?

how was your own garden fence - the one between your garden and “your” road - referred to in the planning app?

kind regards, Mac
How would the road be enclosed and incorporated into my property? There is a hedge, a fence and the gate (which doesn't have a dropped kerb) on the other side of the road. Other than the gate, the road is enclosed - and is enclosed when this gate is shut. It would have been fully enclosed if the fence planned had been erected as permitted.

I don't have a fence on the side of the road nearest to my house. The only fence is on the other side of the road, which according to my deeds is a shared boundary.
did the planning app include your property?
No. Only some gardens were extended due to the lay out of the estate. A new fence was suppose to be erected (but as you know wasn't for 2 years) to enclose my neighbour's rear garden with the party-line fence. There's no other property this fence could be the boundary of. I don't actually know for sure if there wasn't a fence between 2003-2005. I only have my neighbour's word for this and they didn't live there then. I've tried to find old aerial images, with no luck. My deeds map does have a thick black line for the boundary where the fence was suppose to be built but wasn't, then it has a dashed line where there is no fence, but a hedge was planted in 2005. Does the thick black line and dashed line usually represent anything on deed plans?

If the surveyor had wanted the road to be used exclusively for my property, that my neighbour's land doesn't abut the road, what would be the signs to look for?
IdefixUK
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Re: Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

Post by IdefixUK »

This thread has moved on rapidly, nevertheless here I attempt to answer some of the questions you posed.
vegansavage wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:57 am
Do you know what ‘common ownership’ means in terms of property? I ask because a few days after the developers had purchased the estate each individual property was registered under their own title number. The land still had a common owner, but not in a single parcel, as the parcels had already been divided up. Almost a year later when the properties were sold would the legal presumption regarding the road still apply?

Before the developer sold off the plots he owned the whole lot, including the roads, as this was what he purchased from the MOD. When he registered the individual plots with the land registry he was still the owner of all of the land. It is only when he comes to sell individual plots that there is any possibility of ad medium filum coming into play.

I haven’t read my neighbours deeds.

I strongly suggest that you do!

I’ve been reading the case you shared regarding legal presumptions etc and one part states “It is a well-settled rule of construction that, where there is a conveyance of land, even although it is described by reference to a plan, and by colour, and by quantity, if it is said to be bounded on one side by a public thoroughfare, then half of the road passes unless there is enough in the expressions of the instrument or in the surrounding circumstances to show that this is not the intention of the parties”. What if, like my deeds, there is no mention of being “bounded on one side by a public thoroughfare”?

I don't suppose it would need to say it in words, I would think that a plan showing the abutment could be sufficient.

I’ve read about intent. My property is the only one with a dropped kerb off the road - the developers didn’t put one in for my neighbours.

I rather thought that the MOD put in the dropped kerb close to your house, not the developer. Are you saying that the developer built your house?

The party-line fence that was eventually built, my other neighbour who lived here in the MoD days has stated that it was clear from the lay out that this road appeared to be for my property’s access only (just his opinion looking on the ground at the time), and the fact that everyone has their own access to the front of their property and which I would be the only one in the cul-de-sac with shared access.

My land registry title plan states that I benefit from and am subject to the rights in the transfer between the MoD and developer. This mentions that Land Property Act 1925, Wheeldon etc will not pass. Yet in 2003 when the developer sold the land you suggest these may in some way be re-activated?

Yes
alyson
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Re: Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

Post by alyson »

vegansavage wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:10 pm
alyson wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:44 pm
alyson wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:02 pm

Again, why does it matter?
Does it restrict you in any way?
What could you do if there were no gate that you can't do now?
Please answer!
What does the presence of the gate restrict you from doing????????
I'm not really sure how to answer. If you buy one thing but it's potentially not what you thought, then you'd look in to it. My biggest concern is future development, over something I didn't even consider was possible.
IMHO you are spending a lot of money on something that is a non problem.
You are spending lots of cash winding your neighbour up and are in danger of permanently souring your relationship with them, potentially to the point where you end up having to move to get peace of mind.
Having been on the neighbour’s end of a dispute, winning and then welcoming a new neighbour within the year, I speak from experience.
geordiepete
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Re: Crossing a general boundary = trespass?

Post by geordiepete »

IdefixUK wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:01 pm This thread has moved on rapidly, nevertheless here I attempt to answer some of the questions you posed.
vegansavage wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:57 am
Do you know what ‘common ownership’ means in terms of property? I ask because a few days after the developers had purchased the estate each individual property was registered under their own title number. The land still had a common owner, but not in a single parcel, as the parcels had already been divided up. Almost a year later when the properties were sold would the legal presumption regarding the road still apply?

Before the developer sold off the plots he owned the whole lot, including the roads, as this was what he purchased from the MOD. When he registered the individual plots with the land registry he was still the owner of all of the land. It is only when he comes to sell individual plots that there is any possibility of ad medium filum coming into play.

I haven’t read my neighbours deeds.

I strongly suggest that you do!

I’ve been reading the case you shared regarding legal presumptions etc and one part states “It is a well-settled rule of construction that, where there is a conveyance of land, even although it is described by reference to a plan, and by colour, and by quantity, if it is said to be bounded on one side by a public thoroughfare, then half of the road passes unless there is enough in the expressions of the instrument or in the surrounding circumstances to show that this is not the intention of the parties”. What if, like my deeds, there is no mention of being “bounded on one side by a public thoroughfare”?

I don't suppose it would need to say it in words, I would think that a plan showing the abutment could be sufficient.

I’ve read about intent. My property is the only one with a dropped kerb off the road - the developers didn’t put one in for my neighbours.

I rather thought that the MOD put in the dropped kerb close to your house, not the developer. Are you saying that the developer built your house?

The party-line fence that was eventually built, my other neighbour who lived here in the MoD days has stated that it was clear from the lay out that this road appeared to be for my property’s access only (just his opinion looking on the ground at the time), and the fact that everyone has their own access to the front of their property and which I would be the only one in the cul-de-sac with shared access.

My land registry title plan states that I benefit from and am subject to the rights in the transfer between the MoD and developer. This mentions that Land Property Act 1925, Wheeldon etc will not pass. Yet in 2003 when the developer sold the land you suggest these may in some way be re-activated?

Yes
I don't suppose it would need to say it in words, I would think that a plan showing the abutment could be sufficient.

But how would I know for sure that the my neighbour's land abutted the road and not a metre in from the kerb where the fence now sits and which was planned?

I’ve read about intent. My property is the only one with a dropped kerb off the road - the developers didn’t put one in for my neighbours.

I rather thought that the MOD put in the dropped kerb close to your house, not the developer. Are you saying that the developer built your house?


You're correct. I meant if the developers wanted my neighbours to have access off the road they didn't put in a dropped kerb. Wouldn't this suggest that vehicle access for them was not the intent of the developer?

I have read my neighbour's £3 title plan from Land Registry, just not the full version.
Last edited by geordiepete on Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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