Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

despair
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Re: Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

Post by despair »

I was not suggesting you withold evidence from solicitors but in any negotiation if the other side are difficult its helpful to have something to use as a wedge later in discussions
Abacus
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:59 pm

Re: Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

Post by Abacus »

Morgan Sweet wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:41 am You are in a strong position, so approach your neighbour to mention that the boundary fence they erected is clearly in the wrong position with reference to the LR title plans. Mention that it will add difficulty if either of you wishes to sell their property in the future if the fence is not correctly sited and that you wish to prevent a dispute that would have to be resolved before either property could be sold. If they see reason then you could ask a Solicitor to oversee a simple boundary agreement that both of you would keep with your deeds.

Sadly if you are dealing with a land grabber who refuses to agree to move the fence then you will be in a dispute that will have to be resolved. I have no experience in dealing with legal insurance but I would have thought that you would need to act as soon as possible to notify them of all the evidence and await their advice. I have experience in using solicitors in these events and strongly advise using solicitors well experienced in property disputes; not cheap at £250 plus vat/hour at the time so having legal insurance should help you.

A solicitor's letter setting out the facts should bring the land grabber to his senses, you then can hopefully all meet with the solicitor at the site and agree the position of the boundary which will be recorded in writing by the solicitor, this would then resolve the dispute and after declaring a dispute if you sell your property it will provide evidence that it has been resolved amicably. If no agreement is forthcoming then your solicitor probably would escalate it to a tier one Land Registry Tribunal. The very best of luck and hopefully you will let the forum know how this was resolved so that others can benefit from your experience in these unfortunate circumstances.
Thank you Morgan.
I understand your points re: dispute and selling and as far as I know, neither my wife & I, nor our neighbours, are looking at selling anytime soon. However, good to note.
My insurance company is NFU so given their reputation I'd feel fairly confident they would advise a suitable solicitor.
I will update forum on how things progress as and when.
Abacus
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:59 pm

Re: Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

Post by Abacus »

despair wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:23 pm I was not suggesting you withold evidence from solicitors but in any negotiation if the other side are difficult its helpful to have something to use as a wedge later in discussions
Thank you for your recommendations. I too feel it is always good to have another card to play and I think I have one or two (undisclosed on here) so likely to 'play my hand' as described on here.
Will update forum as to how it goes.
Abacus
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:59 pm

Re: Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

Post by Abacus »

Collaborate wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:05 am I'd err on the side of caution and put all your cards on the table at the outset. If it looks like ending up in court your solicitor would have to send a letter before action in which your evidence would have to be disclosed in any event.
Agreed, I will play this out with what I have to date and let solicitor know it all should it get to that.
It should be noted that I am currently waiting on planning permission for something entirely separate so won't be upsetting the apple cart just yet until this goes through.
Thank you for your advice
arborlad
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Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

Post by arborlad »

Abacus wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:34 am
I am fairly certain that my neighbour, who put up some fencing approx. 2 years ago, has acquired c. 3-4 metres of my land. The strip is approx. 60 metres long. When my neighbour was putting the fencing up they asked me if they could move the fence line around a tree. This was at the time of the fencing contractor being there and putting up the fence so I was somewhat 'on the spot'. I asked them where the boundary line was and they said, "just the other side of said tree".



Unless there is something we are unaware of, the 'fence line' they wanted to move was 'the boundary' - far more accurately than anything on paper.

Any competent fencer would have no trouble accommodating a tree in the fence line.


Abacus wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:35 pm My insurance company is NFU so given their reputation I'd feel fairly confident they would advise a suitable solicitor.


They have good legals, though 'tis hoped it doesn't reach that stage.

Do you know if they've got any Planning Applications?
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
mango1
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Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:06 am

Re: Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

Post by mango1 »

Do download Google earth. It has a historic photo section so you can get historic satellite photos from the last 20 years. The last 10 or so years the definition is very good so fence lines can be seen.
The legal boundary will have been formed with the conveyance that separates the two plots of land. Download your register of title from the LR and see if there are any plans attached , if so fill in the form oc2 (iirc) and get the copies of any attached documents - these may have dimensioned plans on them or a sketch map.
Landgrabists know the cost of legal action and use that and the likelihood that insurance companies will not pay out against you , it vastly outweighs the cost of the land.
If you have good photos and or dimensions on your plans attached to conveyance you can ask a chartered ground surveyor to draw up a determined boundary application and submit it to the land registry. This will be sent to your neighbour and he will have to object stating the reasons for objection.
This is good as it flushes their argument for the land grab and tests if they want to fight it at little cost to yourself and no risk of legal costs being awarded against you (so far).
If you wish to proceed the case will be referred to the first tier tribunal land registration court.
You will both be offered free mediation (worth about 2k) then if you can't work it out you can proceed to the tribunal (no court fees) at which you can represent yourself, or with the help of a solicitor or a barrister. You have to be able to prove the position of the boundary to the tribunal.
All previous tribunal cases are downloadable.
Costs can be awarded from the date the case is referred to the tribunal.
Our insurance company declined our case, and did not even mention determined boundary application the whole industry is geared towards expensive county court cases which are very busy .
We have gone the determined boundary route which seems a much cheaper and accessable route than county court, although it can still be expensive as you could lose your case and have costs awarded and it's unlikely you will get all your cost back if you win.
From my point of view it's been very good as the objection lodged is so flawed (it is full of lies that I can prove myself ) that I am happy proceeding to the tribunal stage.
*Disclaimer I have no legal training.
Abacus
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:59 pm

Re: Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

Post by Abacus »

arborlad wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:15 pm
Abacus wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:34 am
I am fairly certain that my neighbour, who put up some fencing approx. 2 years ago, has acquired c. 3-4 metres of my land. The strip is approx. 60 metres long. When my neighbour was putting the fencing up they asked me if they could move the fence line around a tree. This was at the time of the fencing contractor being there and putting up the fence so I was somewhat 'on the spot'. I asked them where the boundary line was and they said, "just the other side of said tree".



Unless there is something we are unaware of, the 'fence line' they wanted to move was 'the boundary' - far more accurately than anything on paper.

Any competent fencer would have no trouble accommodating a tree in the fence line.


Abacus wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:35 pm My insurance company is NFU so given their reputation I'd feel fairly confident they would advise a suitable solicitor.


They have good legals, though 'tis hoped it doesn't reach that stage.

Do you know if they've got any Planning Applications?
Arborlad - I have checked on the Council Planning site and no, they don't have any planning permissions.
Abacus
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:59 pm

Re: Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

Post by Abacus »

mango1 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:16 pm Do download Google earth. It has a historic photo section so you can get historic satellite photos from the last 20 years. The last 10 or so years the definition is very good so fence lines can be seen.
The legal boundary will have been formed with the conveyance that separates the two plots of land. Download your register of title from the LR and see if there are any plans attached , if so fill in the form oc2 (iirc) and get the copies of any attached documents - these may have dimensioned plans on them or a sketch map.
Landgrabists know the cost of legal action and use that and the likelihood that insurance companies will not pay out against you , it vastly outweighs the cost of the land.
If you have good photos and or dimensions on your plans attached to conveyance you can ask a chartered ground surveyor to draw up a determined boundary application and submit it to the land registry. This will be sent to your neighbour and he will have to object stating the reasons for objection.
This is good as it flushes their argument for the land grab and tests if they want to fight it at little cost to yourself and no risk of legal costs being awarded against you (so far).
If you wish to proceed the case will be referred to the first tier tribunal land registration court.
You will both be offered free mediation (worth about 2k) then if you can't work it out you can proceed to the tribunal (no court fees) at which you can represent yourself, or with the help of a solicitor or a barrister. You have to be able to prove the position of the boundary to the tribunal.
All previous tribunal cases are downloadable.
Costs can be awarded from the date the case is referred to the tribunal.
Our insurance company declined our case, and did not even mention determined boundary application the whole industry is geared towards expensive county court cases which are very busy .
We have gone the determined boundary route which seems a much cheaper and accessable route than county court, although it can still be expensive as you could lose your case and have costs awarded and it's unlikely you will get all your cost back if you win.
From my point of view it's been very good as the objection lodged is so flawed (it is full of lies that I can prove myself ) that I am happy proceeding to the tribunal stage.
*Disclaimer I have no legal training.
Thank you for your advice. I had downloaded Google Earth Pro (I understand you need the Pro version to see the historical pictures) and unfortunately, given that there is a line of trees under whch the boundary ran, I haven't been able to spot the original fence, even when changing to an oblique view which is a shame.
Abacus
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:59 pm

Re: Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

Post by Abacus »

With reference to Morgansweet's comments earlier in the thread about raising a dispute; having read through my neighbour's TP1, under Restrictive Covenants by the Transferee, it states:

The Transferee(s) so as to bind the property and each and every part of it into whosever hands it may come but not so as to be personally liable for any breach or breaches of any restrictive covenant after the Transferee(s) has parted with all interest in the Property covenant(s) with the Transferor for the benefit of the Retained Land and each and every part thereof:
1. that the Property shall not be used in such a way as to create a nuisance to the neighbouring owners including the Transferor PROVIDED THAT in determining whether or not an act is a nuisance the person or persons with the benefit of this covenant must act reasonably

The Retained Land is not my land/property albeit my land/property does border the Retained Land in places.

So to all, if I were to raise a dispute about the boundary, is this in effect creating a nuisance? Perhaps more importantly, given the wording, would it apply to me?

It should be noted that no such covenant exists on my deeds/TP1
arborlad
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Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

Post by arborlad »

Abacus wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:46 pm
Thank you for your advice. I had downloaded Google Earth Pro (I understand you need the Pro version to see the historical pictures) and unfortunately, given that there is a line of trees under whch the boundary ran, I haven't been able to spot the original fence, even when changing to an oblique view which is a shame.
[/quote]




Where these images have a N-S-E-W option, it can often show something different.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people
Primed101
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Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:49 pm

Re: Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

Post by Primed101 »

For what its worth, due to another post that I made on this forum, I also checked my insurance company with whom I have been covered for the last 5 or 6 years and I have legal cover also.

I phoned their legal helpline and they suggested that boundary disputes are not covered either as the person taking action or defending. When I checked with other insurance companies and looked into the policy wording of their legal cover, I could not find anyone offering legal cover for boundary issues.

That is not to say that there isn't a home policy that has legal cover which would cover boundary issues (in fact, I would be very interested to know any suppliers), but I certainly couldn't find one.

It seems that DAS provide quite a lot of the legal policies and if you go to their website, the policy is quite compressive but they don't offer it as a stand alone and it seems that the insurance companies don't offer the full version of the DAS policy.
despair
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Re: Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

Post by despair »

I did politely point out early in this thread that legal insurance tends not to cover boundary disputes
Primed101
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Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:49 pm

Re: Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

Post by Primed101 »

despair wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:57 pm I did politely point out early in this thread that legal insurance tends not to cover boundary disputes
You did indeed, I was just confirming that my legal policy didn't seem to cover such a dispute when I made the enquiry.

However, I could be wrong and would welcome any other experiences with people who have enquired about legal cover via their home insurance policy.
Abacus
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:59 pm

Re: Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

Post by Abacus »

Hello all again - an update.
Well, neighbour has objected to the lawful development certificate I have applied for to regularise an outbuilding built on my property quite some years ago that is used as a holiday let, which has been in continuous use since Jan 2014 - well before I purchased in 2017. As far as I'm aware then this should go through as within the 4 year rule. This of course has, in my mind, upped the ante. Especially as the neighbour is also a parish councillor who have also objected. I am awaiting the parish council to publish the minutes of the meeting because, if my neighbour did not declare an interest or was not removed from the meeting when this was discussed at the parish council meeting; I believe this is absolutely breaking the Code of Conduct for local government, especially as she has written a diatribe of rubbish on her objection as well.
I had a thought the other day - given that I am 95% certain they have encroached on my land (I think the pictures displayed previously show unequivocally that the new fence is on my land when compared to the LR Plan), should I just remove the fence? What would be the consequence of that?
Having read through other threads I understand that if somebody places fencing on my land then it essentially becomes my fence so why shouldn't I?

Yes, they may well try to sue me for criminal damage (which I would welcome) but then they would have to prove that the fence wasn't on my land and the onus is then on them to prove that. Furthermore, would it change the argument (from an insurance perspective) to defending myself for criminal damage as opposed to a boundary dispute?

Your thoughts would be most welcome.
mr sheen
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Re: Insurance Cover - Is it best to be the aggressor or the victim??

Post by mr sheen »

This may be a change of use and hence require 10 years before it will automatically be accepted.....you need to do more research.
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