Am I allowed 6ft fence?

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Sarah199019
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:28 pm

Am I allowed 6ft fence?

Post by Sarah199019 »

Hi guys please bare with me in new! Background info, nice next door are number 77, we are 79 and horrible next door are 81... We rent and have been here 9 months, the others own, our landlord is happy for us to do anything but has no intentions of helping with info. 81 have caused massive issues for our privacy which has led to us wanting a higher fence. We all had 4ft fences until no 77 had 6ft erected 3 weeks ago, which leaves 4ft still between us (no79) and 81. 81 told us 6ft is not allowed along our row of houses and tried to encourage us to argue the toss with 77 about their new 6ft fence but we don't care so said nothing. I contacted our local council and the 'principal development control officer' replied stating 6ft6" wall or fence is allowed to the rear without planning permission. 81 say he is incorrect and we are lying. I have paid for the deeds for all 3 houses from the land registry and cannot find anything in them in regards to fence height. 81 says she will be contacting her solicitor, our estate agents and the council but whatever they tell her she will tell us we aren't allowed higher.
Now we obviously don't want to pay out for the fence for it to come to light that she is correct and we can't have higher. Does anyone know if the department I spoke with at the council is going to be 100% correct on the matter or is there a chance they could be wrong? As at the moment we only have this man's word that we can go off. If me posting what I have from the deeds could be of any use please let me know and I'll add them in. There is reference in 81s about something to do with light and air
Paddock
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Re: Am I allowed 6ft fence?

Post by Paddock »

Generally you are allowed 2m unless there is something specific about your deeds etc.

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/2 ... rden_walls

Paddock
Sarah199019
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Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:28 pm

Re: Am I allowed 6ft fence?

Post by Sarah199019 »

Paddock wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:04 pm Generally you are allowed 2m unless there is something specific about your deeds etc.

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/2 ... rden_walls

Paddock
Thank you Paddock.
All info I have found so far would point to us being allowed the fence.
It's mainly the wording in the deeds that is confusing and making me doubt what we have bene told.
I'll attach a picture of the deeds for 81 which mention a provision to light or air and covenants. I am an absolute novice and no amount of googling has helped me to understand the deeds so hopefully someone on here may be able to shed some light.
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MacadamB53
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Re: Am I allowed 6ft fence?

Post by MacadamB53 »

Hi Sarah199019,

in order for the fence to be lawful it must 1. have been granted planning permission; 2. have the consent of the landowner (more straightforward if you are the landowner); not impact other rights people might own;

in your case you’re two down, one to go - it’s already got planning permission (as confirmed by the council) and the landowner has given you consent.

the final point that needs to be investigated is whether the property is burdened with a restrictive covenant (something agreed upon as part of a transfer of ownership) which limits the type/height of boundary structures allowed on your property.

the HMLR register entries you’ve posted mention that some sort of restrictive covenants are in place that we’re agreed upon as part of a conveyance in 1958.

these could be anything of a restrictive nature - no livestock, no business, no selling alcohol, no caravans, etc.

so it could be that one of these is, e.g. “no walls or fences over 4ft along the boundaries”.

the register also mentions: “NOTE: Copy in Certificate”

this means HMLR have retained a copy of the paperwork from that 1958 conveyance.

for a small fee, one can obtain a duplicate from HMLR on request - I’d be doing this next to establish what restrictive covenants were included...

kind regards, Mac
despair
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Re: Am I allowed 6ft fence?

Post by despair »

Agreed ...you need to find out exactly what that restrictive covenant is befire proceeding
Sarah199019
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Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:28 pm

Re: Am I allowed 6ft fence?

Post by Sarah199019 »

Thank you Mac!
That is a simple explanation that I have been scouring the Internet for on and off for weeks now!
Would you happen to know how I purchase the covenant?
Obviously I got the deeds off the land registry site and I did check there previously for the purchase of covenants but I couldn't find anything, so assumed I wasn't entitled to view these
Sarah199019
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Re: Am I allowed 6ft fence?

Post by Sarah199019 »

I have just realised my neighbours at no 77 who have just erected their 6ft fence have what I belive is covenants at the bottom of their deeds and have the same original seller as the deeds above for the other next door no 81.
If I were to assume 81s are the same as 77s then are there any restiecifons to a higher fence? It states no permanent structure so I'm unsure if a high fence is classes as a structure. Sorry I'm totally clueless on this!
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IdefixUK
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Re: Am I allowed 6ft fence?

Post by IdefixUK »

Hello Sarah199019,
There is a good chance that the covenants will be similarly worded. But even so the covenant to erect a fence is a "positive" covenant ( these can only be enforced by the original seller against the original purchaser). The other covenants about businesses and structures are negative ( you will not....) covenants and in theory can be enforced against subsequent purchasers. Given the distinction between the fence and the different covenant regarding structures I would say that even the covenant section differentiates between a "fence" and a "structure". All in all you seem to me to be home and dry and can put up your fence without worries.
If it is still a worry you can down load a form from the .Gov land registry web site ( be sure its the .gov one). And fill it in so as to identify the "copy in certificate" document you want for your property and send it with a cheque for £7 (from memory).The Land Registry will send you a copy.

Regards
pilman
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Re: Am I allowed 6ft fence?

Post by pilman »

The deed for 77 in 1959 states North and West fence was to be the responsibility of the new owner.
What does 79's Register of Title state about which fences were to be maintained.

There appears to be no reason why you cannot erect a fence to a maximum height of 2 metres, unless the fence between 79 and 81 is shown to be the fence that is the responsibility of No.81.

Then it may be necessary to erect the new fence entirely on the land you currently occupy, which would mean positioning it directly next to the existing 4 feet high fence that will remain undisturbed.

That could mean using 100mm of land in the title for the property you are renting, so that this positioning would have to be agreed by the Landlord as owner of that land that would then be covered by a fence and its posts, which would reduce the width of the available garden by 100mm.

If you intend to pay for the erection of the fence as the tenant, I know that it would not bother me as the Landlord, but you will need to ensure that your Landlord is agreeable if that was the only way a high fence can be erected without the owner of 81 being able to prevent it.

You may also want to know that on the Schedule for 77's property, item1 is a Positive covenant, which can only be enforced against the person who bought the house in 1959, because the demand to maintain the fence is part of a contractual obligation.

Only the Restrictive Covenants at 2 and 3 on the Charges Register are enforceable against all future owners, because they are worded to say that the new owner cannot do something.

They may also be unenforceable because such covenants are intended to benefit an identified parcel of land, not the building company who sold the house in 1959.
That is a common misconception when a restrictive covenant is worded as that one was.
Sarah199019
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Re: Am I allowed 6ft fence?

Post by Sarah199019 »

Thank you both for the replies, very informative :)
Pilam Ive attached a picture of the deeds for 79 (the house I live in) and I cannot see anything in there in regards to the fence for this property, its just more sentences that I really do not understand. But the nice neighbours and the landlord have informed us the fence we would like to replace is the responsability of this property.
It's all sounding very positive going off the replies I've recieved. I think 81 is just an elderly lady very set in her ways and against the idea of not being able to watch our every move so may have said everything possible to make us believe we cannot change the fence height
pilman
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Re: Am I allowed 6ft fence?

Post by pilman »

Unless there is a specific restrictive covenant that stated "Not to erect a fence above a maximum height of 4 feet" written on the register of title for the property you occupy, perhaps you need to show the elderly neighbour the following extract from Schedule 2, Part 2, Class A of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015.
Clause (b) highlighted below applies to fences in a back garden
PART 2
Minor operations

Class A – gates, fences, walls etc
Permitted development

A. The erection, construction, maintenance, improvement or alteration of a gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure.


Development not permitted
A.1 Development is not permitted by Class A if—
(a) the height of any gate, fence, wall or means of enclosure erected or constructed adjacent to a highway used by vehicular traffic would, after the carrying out of the development,
exceed—
(i) for a school, 2 metres above ground level, provided that any part of the gate, fence, wall or means of enclosure which is more than 1 metre above ground level does not create an obstruction to the view of persons using the highway as to be likely to cause danger to such persons;

(ii) in any other case, 1 metre above ground level;

(b) the height of any other gate, fence, wall or means of enclosure erected or constructed would exceed 2 metres above ground level;

(c) the height of any gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure maintained, improved or altered would, as a result of the development, exceed its former height or the height referred to in paragraph (a) or (b) as the height appropriate to it if erected or constructed,
whichever is the greater; or

(d) it would involve development within the curtilage of, or to a gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure surrounding, a listed building.
Sarah199019
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Re: Am I allowed 6ft fence?

Post by Sarah199019 »

This is the deeds I've been able to get for the property I live in. I can't see anything in there to do with fencing.
I think I'll just pay the £7 and buy the covenants for peace of mind :)
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