I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

vwgolfs
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I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

Post by vwgolfs » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:49 am

Hi Guys,

Please can some one advise me on the following :-

2 months ago i contacted Cheshire Council's planning department with regards to me putting a fence up between my house and my neighbours house, (the reason for the fence is my little boy suffers from ADHD and is very hard to control and he keeps running out of the front door and jumping over the 3 ft fence we had and runs of down the road so we needed to stop this happening for his own safety) i explained i wanted to place a 6ft fence where the 2 propertys meet in the middle and then continue it along the front of my house and include a 6ft gate, i was told i would not need planning permission as long as it was 2 meteres away from a high way, happy days i thought so off i went and built the fence barr the gates which are on order, several weeks after erecting the fence i receive a complaint from the Council saying my next door neighbour has objetcted to it and would either need to take it down or apply for planning permission!!! i asked to speak to the person who had previously told me what i was doing was fine, When he came on the phone he initialy he told me as long as it was 2 meters from the highway it was fine, i said i would check and come back to him, i went away and measured 3 different points from the fence to the highway and all 3 are well over 2 meters away, i went back to him and told him they were 2 meteres and he suddenly changed his tune and said you will need planning permission!!!! is this correct? i asked him what i could have without planning permission and he said a 1 meter fence!!! i would also like to point out the fence is a good 6 inches on my land not the boundry line. please can any one shed any light on what you can do and cant do as it seems to be a very grey area and even the Council dont know!!!!

despair
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Re: I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

Post by despair » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:35 pm

A fence between 2 houses can be 6 ft high so long as it tapers down to 1 metre adjacent to the highway

In front of your house it can only be 1 metre high without planning permission

You should NEVER accept phone discussions always get confirmations in writing

You can however grow a hedge to dizzy heights along the front ..........CRAZY I know

enigma
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Re: I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

Post by enigma » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:28 pm

Apply for planning permission and follow the instructions to the letter. If this does fail appeal against the decision giving the reasons why. Come back to us if you need further advise. Keep your cool at all times!

pilman
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Re: I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

Post by pilman » Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:22 pm

There are what is known as Permitted Development Rights that allow fences to be erected without planning permission.
This is quoted below:
PART 2

MINOR OPERATIONS

Class A
Permitted development
A. The erection, construction, maintenance, improvement or alteration of a gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure.
Development not permitted
A.1 Development is not permitted by Class A if—
(a) the height of any gate, fence, wall or means of enclosure erected or constructed adjacent to a highway used by vehicular traffic would, after the carrying out of the development, exceed one metre above ground level;

(b) the height of any other gate, fence, wall or means of enclosure erected or constructed would exceed two metres above ground level;

(c) the height of any gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure maintained, improved or altered would, as a result of the development, exceed its former height or the height referred to in sub-paragraph (a) or (b) as the height appropriate to it if erected or constructed, whichever is the greater; or

(d) it would involve development within the curtilage of, or to a gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure surrounding, a listed building.
You will see that the 1 metre maximum is where the fence is erected "adjacent to a highway used by vehicular traffic" and this is where the local councils try and insist on the 2 metre rule.
There is no justification for saying that there has to be a minimum distance of 2 metres or even 1 metre which is what other councils say.
Various councils say different things, so it is important to know what the Government granted permission for in the legal Statutory Order they published called the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development ) Order 1985.
An amendment in 2008 introduced a whole new Part 1, which allows development within the curtilage of a house.
Normally "curtilage" includes all of the garden of a house so the Part 1 GPDO now states in Class E what can be erected in the curtilage of a house.
Read this:
Permitted development
E. The provision within the curtilage of the dwellinghouse of—

(a) any building or enclosure, swimming or other pool required for a purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse as such, or the maintenance, improvement or other alteration of such a building or enclosure; or

(b) a container used for domestic heating purposes for the storage of oil or liquid petroleum gas.

Development not permitted

E.1 Development is not permitted by Class E if—
(a) the total area of ground covered by buildings, enclosures and containers within the curtilage (other than the original dwellinghouse) would exceed 50% of the total area of the curtilage (excluding the ground area of the original dwellinghouse);

(b) any part of the building, enclosure, pool or container would be situated on land forward of a wall forming the principal elevation of the original dwellinghouse;

(c) the building would have more than one storey;

(d) the height of the building, enclosure or container would exceed—
(i) 4 metres in the case of a building with a dual-pitched roof,
(ii) 2.5 metres in the case of a building, enclosure or container within 2 metres of the boundary of the curtilage of the dwellinghouse, or
(iii) 3 metres in any other case;

(e) the height of the eaves of the building would exceed 2.5 metres;

(f) the building, enclosure, pool or container would be situated within the curtilage of a listed building;

(g) it would include the construction or provision of a veranda, balcony or raised platform;

(h) it relates to a dwelling or a microwave antenna; or

(i) the capacity of the container would exceed 3,500 litres.

E.2 In the case of any land within the curtilage of the dwellinghouse which is within—
(a) a World Heritage Site,
(b) a National Park,
(c) an area of outstanding natural beauty, or
(d) the Broads,
development is not permitted by Class E if the total area of ground covered by buildings, enclosures, pools and containers situated more than 20 metres from any wall of the dwellinghouse would exceed 10 square metres.

E.3 In the case of any land within the curtilage of the dwellinghouse which is article 1(5) land, development is not permitted by Class E if any part of the building, enclosure, pool or container would be situated on land between a wall forming a side elevation of the dwellinghouse and the boundary of the curtilage of the dwellinghouse.
The question that no one has answered yet is what is a means of enclosure that can be erected in the curtilage of a house.
Is a fence a means of enclosure?
If it is, then in the garden of a house the "enclosure can be 2.5 metres high if within 2 metres of the boundary.

In Part 2 of the GPDO Minor Operations, a fence can be 2 metres high if it is NOT ADJACENT to a highway used by vehicular traffic.

So in response to your council, you need to understand whether you are using permitted development rights granted by Part 1 Class E being a means of enclosure within the curtilage of the dwelling, or whether you are using permitted development rights granted by Part 2 Minor Operations.

The pavement that runs alongside the carriageway is considered by most councils to be part of a highway used by vehicular traffic, so if your fence is erected 6 inches back from the edge of the pavement, then argue that that cannot be "adjacent to the highway"
The word adjacent means "next to" not "separated from" by six inches of privately owned land that is not being built on.

I was a planning consultant and it is still one of my pet hates that council officials make up distances when dealing with fence erections.
The law is quite clear as indicated in the quotes I have posted here.
There is no mention of when something is "adjacent" to the highway used by vehicles.
Since it is an offence to drive a vehicle on a pavement, that also seems to be a misrepresentation of the words used in the GPDO.

Read both quotes carefully to see if you can understand why the council have no legal right to stop you erecting the fence you have described.
Part 1 Class E was introduced in 2008, Part 2 was introduced in 1985 when the GPDO was first issued.
That to me means that Part 1 Class E is intended to offer householders more opportunities of developing land within the curtilage of their house and trumps Part 2 in regard to a means of enclosure. The biggest problem is that Class E does not allow development forward of the main elevation, which could be what you are doing.
Nevertheless be firm about what is the meaning of "adjacent" Nowhere in law is it stated to be 2 metres.
That is a made up distance with no legal merit at all.

vwgolfs
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Re: I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

Post by vwgolfs » Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:33 pm

Guys thanks for all your replys. just want to pont out the fence is in the middle of the 2 propertys i.e right up to the bricks and mortor but 6 inches on to my property not the boundry, if i reduce the end panel that is next to the high way to 1 meter i dont need planning permission? can i also ask if i was to move the 6 ft fence at the front of my proerty back 6 inches on to my land would i still need planning?

despair
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Re: I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

Post by despair » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:57 pm

You cannot have a 6ft fence along the front of your property without planning permision

Only between the 2 houses so long as it tapers down to 1 metre paralel to the road /pavement

any fence or wall parallell to the pavement can only be 1 metre

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Mattylad
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Re: I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

Post by Mattylad » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:04 am

Looks like Despair has not been reading Pilmans posts :D

The back fence can be parallel to the highway :D
Any comments I give here are my own opinions, for legal advise check with a qualified solicitor.

despair
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Re: I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

Post by despair » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:26 am

Actually i was referring to the OPs latest post concerning the fence at the front

I am aware of Pilmans reply but would then have to ask why in my area there are several cases where 2 metre high fences and brick walls have been built set back from the junction with pavement and enforcement action forced them to reduce to 1 metre

the most bewildering case where it affected no one even went to appeal etc but the house owner lost

so i suspect theres some way councils can and do get their way

I even applied for planning for a 6ft wall at the front as have others in my area and all have been refused

arborlad
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Re: I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

Post by arborlad » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:03 am

vwgolfs wrote:Hi Guys,

Please can some one advise me on the following :-

2 months ago i contacted Cheshire Council's planning department with regards to me putting a fence up between my house and my neighbours house,
What sort of property are they, semi, terraced, etc., how large is the front garden?
next door neighbour has objetcted to it
It's a shame you didn't discuss it with the neighbour first.
measured 3 different points from the fence to the highway
Where did you actually measure from, the footway/pavement or verge will all be included as highway.
the fence is a good 6 inches on my land not the boundry line
Your reasons for erecting the fence are laudable, but this is a boundary problem for the future - who owns the 3' fence?
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

vwgolfs
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Re: I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

Post by vwgolfs » Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:01 am

Hi, The property is a semi-detached and the fence is not quite in the middle of the 2 propertys it 6 inches past the boundry on my land, i will post some pictures this evening to show everyone what i have done.

We dont speak to our neighbours, we have tried on several occassions to talk to them but they are just unwilling to engage into a conversation, i think this is because we live in an area that is predominatly full of retired people and a young family has moved in and shattered there silence!!! we are not noisy just have a 5 year old that suffers from ADHD.

I measured from the edge of the fence to the end of the Curb, as far as i was concerned the high way is the road, you can't drive a car on the pavement

I own the dividing fence and as stated before it is a good 6 inches on to my property, i have been told by other people that if the fence is on my land and not the boundry there is nothing the Council can do about it, is this correct? i have also been told by a couple of peopel on here that the dividing fence can stay as long as it is tappered down to 1 meter before it reaches 1 meter from the high way, is this correct.

Thanks

pilman
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Re: I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

Post by pilman » Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:07 pm

The 2 metre height can be everywhere other than adjacent to a highway.
If your fence is between two gardens it cannot be said to be adjacent to a highway if that means it runs at right angles to the highway.

So 2 metres high cannot be controlled by the local council nor by a complaining neighbour.
Did you read the GPDO I have quoted.
What is not clear about that?
The Government have said that anywhere in England and Wales this is what you can do because planning permission is granted by the Government.

The only restriction is when a fence is erected "adjacent to a highway used by vehicular traffic" so that is why some people make the fence 1 metre high as it approaches the edge of the pavement even when the fence actually runs between two gardens as your one seems to do.

vwgolfs
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Re: I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

Post by vwgolfs » Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:08 pm

Picture of the fence in question
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

enigma
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Re: I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

Post by enigma » Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:19 pm

Apply for planning permission it is very unlikely to be refused. The only thing I can see that they might ask you to do is to reverse the fencing and alter the colouring. In the extreme they might want you to erect a thick hazel fence depending on the neighbourhood you live in.

pilman
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Re: I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

Post by pilman » Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:43 pm

You appear to be in a different situation from most people as you are at the end of a cul de sac.

The reason why the GPDO specifically mentions a highway is because there can be a traffic problem with sight lines when a fence is 2 metres high right up to the edge of a pavement.
That is unlikely in your case because you see the road directly ahead as you drive from your land, so no one is likely to be approaching from the side as a pedestrian. There seems to be no pavement to the side of your property.

As you have already erected the fence, my suggestion would be to ignore the council unless they issue an enforcement notice.
They will only do that if they consider there has been a breach of planning control that has an effect on highway safety.
The fence between two neighbours is not in breach. It could also be said that planning permission ought to be granted for a 2 metre high fence across your entrance, because of the special circumstances in relation to the end of a cul de sac.

If an enforcement notice is issued you have the right to appeal, which means the matter is dealt with by the Planning Inspectorate.
This can be done at no cost to you by what is called written representations. You write and say why there is no breach of planning control and the council write and say why they think there has been a breach of planning control.

In the first instance they will have to prove the extent of the adopted public highway as there appears to be no pavement in front of your house.
In the second instance they will have to prove that the breach of planning control has any effect on highway safety.

The Planning Inspector appointed to decide the appeal will make a site visit and then rule whether there has been a breach of planning control or whether he could grant permission because of the special circumstances.

I would suggest that you do not incur the additional expense of taking down the fence at this time.
Wait and see what transpires.

If an enforcement notice is issued, I will assist you in preparing an appeal at no charge to you.
My entire career has been spent in listening to council planning officers stating as fact things that were merely personal opinions.
You now seem to have been on the receiving end of just such an official, so I am prepared to support you as a matter of principle especially as I am now retired and enjoy helping when I can.

vwgolfs
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Re: I need urgent help about a 6ft fence i have put up

Post by vwgolfs » Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:45 pm

Hi Enigma, thanks for your reply, my intentions are to feather board both sides of the fence and stain it dark oak the same of the rest of my fencing but for the mean time i will turn the panels round this weekend so the nice part is on the outside. Not sure about applying for planning permission, i am very interested in what Pilman has said and i am going to take him up on his kind offer on assiting me with the Council.

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