Garden fence

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tobyjake
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Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:03 pm

Garden fence

Post by tobyjake » Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:13 pm

Hi I am new to your forum and would like to know if anybody can help me . My neighbour has erected panels on the top of my fence without asking me and in fact erecting them whilst we were out. They are also using the fence for the flowers to grow up against.
The garden boundary is mine as my deeds very clearly prove. I had the fence erected with concrete posts and panels on my side of the garden. We have had the local authority planning officer around to inspect and he has come back with "if the neighbour had applied for planning, it would not have been approved" the panels are an eyesore they are not in the keeping of the remainder of the fence, our view has been taken away and now the sunlight is later coming into the garden. He advised us to speak to the Citizens Advice Bureau, which I did, they have given me other advice help lines. As the fence height is just under the 2m he cannot get the neighbour to remove the panels.
It looks like we will have to seek out Solicitors as the neighbours are verbally abusive, when we asked them to remove the panels after the storm last month as they have added extra weight and height it has actually damaged the fence by loosening one of the concrete posts, so much so that it now leans by around 7".
Should I write to the neighbour first telling them of our intentions or just go straight to a solicitor.

arsie
Posts: 1957
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Location: Norfolk

Re: Garden fence

Post by arsie » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:02 pm

Hi Toby.

As you can see, there are other similar situations to yours and you will see that for him to attach things to your fence without your express permission is trespass. It sounds like you have an uphill struggle on your hands as is often the case in these situations. Be prepared for a long haul. In case it comes to a legal battle, court case etc. you should check to see if your insurance or anything else covers you for legal expenses and also check the small print: the insurance companies will often have terms and conditions you must meet.

If you or anyone else writes a letter you are officially in dispute and, if you are thinking of moving house, this has to be declared on the SPIF and might affect your chances of selling or obtaining a good price.

That checked, I would write asking him to remove the attachments and saying why there is a law that protects peoples property, be that a house, a car or simply a fence. If any damage is caused he is liable for costs. At this stage I would just have a word with a solicitor - they will usually give ten or fifteen minutes for free - for advice about the situation and to look over a draft copy of your letter. Be polite but firmly state your issues.

Given these people sound like they are never going to be best friends can you really continue with your low fence for a view that is increasingly going to be polluted by hostile people effing and blinding at you? I would strongly consider replacing your fence with one of your own that is 2 metres high.

despair
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:07 am

Re: Garden fence

Post by despair » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:18 pm

Concrete posts correctly installed should not lean

however your neighbour has absolutely no right to attach anything to your fence

as its concrete panels you should be able to slide up your panels and detach the neighbours additions and return them in as undamaged way possible

They can of course install their own posts and 2 metre fencing their side of the boundary

you could if you wish slide in gravel boards before you slide back your own panels to increase the height or simply leave the panels out and let the neighbour stew

Actions speak much louder than words and theres no letters and no dispute to declare so sayabsolutely nothing at all ...just act
get heavyweight friends round to help and be witnesses and all of you say nothing at all in the neighbours hearing

if the neighbours are that nasty they wont change their spots so i would look to move pdq before this gets nasty

robj191269
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Location: Hampshire

Re: Garden fence

Post by robj191269 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:02 pm

or take out the panels and replace with concrete gravel boards stacked on top of each other to the top of the concrete posts :)

tobyjake
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Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:03 pm

Re: Garden fence

Post by tobyjake » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:32 pm

Thank you all for your replies.

As we have sat and read and enjoyed the responses and actually thought about them, you are all right in not really wanting to go down the long and probably expensive route of Solicitors, we both like the ideas of removing the panels that are in place at the moment and either installing our own higher wooden panels or the concrete panels, as they then cannot fix anything to them, and then that's after a few weeks of having nothing there at all.

Plus we do have a lot of burly mates we can enrol to help!!

despair
Posts: 16411
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:07 am

Re: Garden fence

Post by despair » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:47 pm

Good for you

if you put your own panels back i would paint their side black and staple a copy of the law to it


a neighbour cannot :-

1)paint or stain or render fences or walls that are not their own property

2)pile or lean soil or anything else against said fences and walls

3)attach anything inc wires or ivy or climbing plants to said fences or walls

4)allow balls etc to be thrown or hit against said fences or walls

This can be verified as the law by any solicitor or CAB office and any damage done by the above becomes full responsibility of the perpetrator

arsie
Posts: 1957
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Location: Norfolk

Re: Garden fence

Post by arsie » Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:06 am

Toby good thinking.
Don't leave a space for too long they might put something up in the space or rent out as a pig farm!

MacadamB53
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Re: Garden fence

Post by MacadamB53 » Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:41 am

Hi Toby,
The garden boundary is mine as my deeds very clearly prove
Could you please elaborate on how your deeds show the boundary (feature) is yours?

I just want to make sure you're getting sound advice from properly informed contributors.

Kind regards, Mac

arsie
Posts: 1957
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Location: Norfolk

Re: Garden fence

Post by arsie » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:27 pm

Good point Mac. I recall someone (Conveyancer?) recently pointing out that a boundary is an infinitesimally thin line that nobody owns, as such. Being responsible for maintaining fences is another matter and we have all assumed that is what the OP means. His deeds presumably say that he is responsible for maintaining (something to mark) this boundary - often indicated by 'T' marks on a plan. He does say he may choose to have nothing at all so it will be interesting to hear what his title deeds state. Of course there is nothing to stop the neighbour erecting a fence or putting in a Leylandii hedge on his own property, back from the boundary line.

MacadamB53
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Re: Garden fence

Post by MacadamB53 » Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:05 pm

Hi Toby,

If your deeds explicitly reference you own the boundary feature then all is well. However, a fair few people have supposed they own the boundary feature because the boundary has 'T' marks on the title plan.

'T' marks alone mean nothing.

Here's a extract from the HMLR guidance on the matter:

If the ‘T’ marks are expressly referred to in the deeds lodged for registration then we will reproduce them on the title plan and refer to them in the register. As an alternative, the boundaries affected by ‘T’ marks may only be described verbally in the register, for example “The ‘T’ mark referred to [in paragraph/clause…] affects the [north western] boundary of the land in this title”.

‘T’ marks on deed plans which are not referred to in the text of a deed have no special force or meaning in law and unless an applicant specifically requests that the ‘T’ marks be shown on the title plan, we will normally ignore them.


This means 'T' marks might have been included simply because the proprietor asked them to be included (for their own reasons) and unless they're referred to in the text part of the register they are of no legal significance.

Here's a link to the full guide:

http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/professi ... guide-40s3

Kind regards, Mac

tobyjake
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Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:03 pm

Re: Garden fence

Post by tobyjake » Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:39 pm

Hi everyone, thank you all so much for your responses.

I have checked the land registry on-line and they have two detailed drawings on how boundary lines are marked. On my deeds the land that my house is built on is in the colour of yellow, and the boundary all around the property is in highlighted black with the letter "T" inside the black line (on the land that my house is built on) my house is a one off of two semi-detached houses, the "T" markings start at the front on my property along the right hand side along the back of my garden and then down the left hand side and then to the front of the property right down the middle of the drives. If looking down on the deeds it looks like a giant oblong all around the property.

We wanted to sell next year but we may be staying as we maybe runway 2 of the new thames estuary airport, so really don't know what to do, my other half wants to take the whole lot down and have a open plan garden!!!!

arsie
Posts: 1957
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:13 am
Location: Norfolk

Re: Garden fence

Post by arsie » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:00 pm

Toby the T marks alone mean nothing by themselves. There has to be some text in your title deeds referring to the T marks, for example to say that you have to maintain something, such as a wall or fence, "as shown by the T marks". There has to be something specified in words to define your responsibility.

T marks that just exist on a drawing, without any reference to them in words in your deeds to say what you have to maintain, are not enough. They mark all of your boundary, as you have explained. Are there any words in your deeds to say that you have to maintain a fence or wall as built by the developer?
Last edited by arsie on Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tobyjake
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Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:03 pm

Re: Garden fence

Post by tobyjake » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:10 pm

Hi Arsie
thank you very much for that piece of information, I will have a proper read over the weekend to see if any thing is in writing, but I do remember that when I bought the property in 2005 my then solicitor pointed out the boundaries to the property as it is un-usual to have boundary ownership all around the property and this had to be brought to my attention. Thank you once again.

No there has never been any dispute over the boundaries before.

thank you

arsie
Posts: 1957
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:13 am
Location: Norfolk

Re: Garden fence

Post by arsie » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:23 pm

No problem Toby. By the way no one 'owns' a boundary. It is not physical. A boundary is a vanishingly thin imaginary line between different properties. A boundary feature, like a wall, hedge or fence, on the other hand, is capable of being 'owned'. The best example to use in illustration is a panel fence with posts, battens and panels. Such a fence ought best to have the posts and battens on the fence-owners land with the panels exactly straddling the line of the boundary, but this has no basis in law. Often these days people putting up such a fence just put the 'nice' side, panels, facing themselves.

It would be very unusual for a property to be responsible for fencing on all sides, whatever T's there may be :shock:

You do need to check the words in your deeds to see what if any fences you have to maintain.

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