Fence issue with new neighbour

IdefixUK
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Re: Fence issue with new neighbour

Post by IdefixUK » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:25 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:47 am
Hi IdefixUK,

You don't own half each

the word ‘mesne’ means just that - they own half each.

kind regards, Mac
I have re-read the thread and the OP indicates that this is a 'double sided' fence. By that I presume that there is one set of posts along the boundary line and to those are attached panels or boards to either side of the posts. So your contention might well be correct here in that each property owns the panels on their respective sides. If this is in fact the case then the willow attachment can stay so long as it is attached to the 'mum's" side of the panels.

But consider a more typical fence of a single panel design, how can anyone logically say that two owners can own those panels half each and separately ? How could any repalcement be done to one half without effecting the other. Does B&Q stock fence panels that have been shaved in half for this purpose? What about a post and wire fence? That just wouldn't make any sense.

I've searched all over for a legal definition of mesne when used in the context of fences and no one seems to want to stick their necks out and give a definition of ownership. Perhaps you have are reference for me?

MacadamB53
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Re: Fence issue with new neighbour

Post by MacadamB53 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:48 pm

Hi IdefixUK,

consider a more typical fence of a single panel design, how can anyone logically say that two owners can own those panels half each and separately ?

the fence straddles the boundary so that half sits on either side - therefore X owns half and Y owns half.

How could any repalcement be done to one half without effecting the other.

it can’t but no problem there since that scenario will never arise.

kind regards, Mac

IdefixUK
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Re: Fence issue with new neighbour

Post by IdefixUK » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:10 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:48 pm
Hi IdefixUK,

consider a more typical fence of a single panel design, how can anyone logically say that two owners can own those panels half each and separately ?

the fence straddles the boundary so that half sits on either side - therefore X owns half and Y owns half.

How could any repalcement be done to one half without effecting the other.

it can’t but no problem there since that scenario will never arise.

kind regards, Mac
Mac,
Are you infact saying that as far as the structure of the single panel fence in this scenario, running accurately along the boundary line, is IN EFFECT in joint ownership as any replacement or repair must (or rather should) involve the two owners?
Regards

aliceinw
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Re: Fence issue with new neighbour

Post by aliceinw » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:14 pm

Thanks for your responses and I'll try and clear up some of the confusion in what I wrote earlier.

The document that I thought was the deeds is a conveyancing plan between the builder, the person who sold the land and I think the people who sold the houses - it does state that regarding "boundary walls and fences dividing the property hereby conveyed form the adjoining properties now or formerly belonging to the Company or the Vendors shall be deemed to be mesne or party walls and fences and shall be all at times hereafter be maintained and repaired as such". This is part of the Second Schedule. Regarding this there is a clause that states "that in so far as the rights and exceptions and reservations mentioned in the first and second schedule hereto shall not vest in possession upn the execution of this conveyance the same shall vest (if they shall vest at all) within the period of 21 years from the death of the last survivor of descendants of hIs Late Majesty King George the Sixth lIving at the date hereof". To me that means that the Second Schedule regarding mesne fencing is still the case. I am not sure if these are deeds as like I say we had a letter from a solicitor 10 years saying they were getting rid of the deeds - I had an original copy of the conveyance plan that I have quoted from which I handed over when we sold the house. I can see from the map that is on the property register that a copy has been filed in the late 70's so I'll download the form mentioned and send £7 and see if what has been filed differs from what I have here.

With regard to the sellers information pack - I ticked shared for the fence between 13 (mum) and 15 (new neighbour) but I had crossed out neighbour maintains so I wrote 13 maintains the fence - in hindsight I should have scribbled out the boxes and just left what I wrote as I can now see I made a mistake with 15 and 17. This confusion though was never mentioned in questions that came back from the solicitor.

With regard to the fence - the posts from what I can see are down the boundary line - I managed to find an old pic from the 80's with the original wall. The current fence is not a panel one so there is a fence down both sides with a gap of approx 5/6 inches between the two sides. It's a good fence that doesn't look tatty 10 years on and has weathered many a storm that the panel fence the other side of 15 did not - that is the main reason we don't want it replaced with something that is possibly not as good. I think if they wanted something higher and they replaced it like for like (not cheapy B & Q panels) we would not have a problem but they have told mum they are going to replace it - no discussion on what this will be.

I agree finding a definition of mesne is difficult, I never realised how complicated fences were till the last month and that’s after 20 odd years as a house owner myself. We have possibly sorted the jumping dog scenario with something that doesn't touch the fence and have a camera to monitor if that is interfered with. We're also looking into whether mum has legal expenses on her house insurance.

Like I say thanks for your response on this Mum is a bit happier today that she can possibly have a say in what happens.

MacadamB53
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Re: Fence issue with new neighbour

Post by MacadamB53 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:52 pm

Hi aliceinw,

there is a fence down both sides with a gap of approx 5/6 inches between the two side

is that two fences sharing very thick fence posts then?

kind regards, Mac

Hollyashjetrudi
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Re: Fence issue with new neighbour

Post by Hollyashjetrudi » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:03 pm

To continue this saga as done on my behalf by my daughter. She explained it very well, but these new folk complain--and report about everything--that is what they frankly make up --its in police hands now as I am classified as a "vulnerable person." and report me, and my dog, for "frightening their children"? etc etc Goodness me. They simply went ahead and tore down part of the joint fence between our houses regardless and knocked another fence up, which is more or less the same as before but used my gateposts to knock their new bit in, which frankly has made little difference as they had not the brain to make the lower bit higher so my dog could not escape--he is an Olympic athlete and Houdini as well, but a very friendly loving rescue dog--but if he got into their garden I am sure these charming lot would accuse him of worse that "scaring their children." FrANkly this is a NFH AND had I a crystal ball, would never have sold--however, as far as I can figure out the idiots have simply replaced one Mesne fence with another!

despair
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Re: Fence issue with new neighbour

Post by despair » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:12 pm

I think links to some photos would help ...if the fence is onky 4 ft high surely good trellis panels could easily be fitted to top of the fence to take it up to 6ft

The worry is that as a dog owner you are 100% responsible for stopping your dig getting next door and yes NFH can make life horrendous

Hope the police ir community officers can help sort matters

arborlad
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Re: Fence issue with new neighbour

Post by arborlad » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:34 am

despair wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:12 pm

The worry is that as a dog owner you are 100% responsible for stopping your dig getting next door..................



There is no connection between dog ownership and land ownership - you should stop trying to make one.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

Hollyashjetrudi
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Re: Fence issue with new neighbour

Post by Hollyashjetrudi » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:11 pm

That is exactly what I have been doing to keep my dog safe, right from 12 months ago when all this nonsense started. My dog is a fine friendly chap , but might run off and get lost if he escaped--I should have named him Rudini! --that was my concern, but then I eventually realised that he may well be accused of this and that,if he ever got into their garden, not just as they have wittered on about "scaring the children" --now they just complain if he barks and "scares the children"--its a long and tiresome story, I am 73, live quietly alone with my dog,I am in poor health, anyway they went ahead and did the deed with the fence as explained, and "they" sent a pack of lies to the council about my dog and blamed other neighbors (I do have proof of this) To get back to the fence, they went ahead and ignored Garden Law--didn't even make a good job of it or realise that by attaching "their" new fence to the existing fenceposts, they have actually created a new Mesne fence--I can paint it as such, any colour from my side if I could be bothered, all this fence stuff is just stupid, going back into history and the stone age, tribal warfare!

Flitch Fancier
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Re: Fence issue with new neighbour

Post by Flitch Fancier » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:34 pm

FYI:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... lish/mesne

Mesne

adjective law
1.
intermediate or intervening: used esp of any assignment of property before the last
a mesne assignment
Word origin of 'mesne'
C15: from legal French meien in the middle, mean [Average]

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