Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

essex_grl
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Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

Post by essex_grl » Sun May 05, 2019 5:00 pm

Hi all! New here as trying to find the answer to this is proving hard work!
I have recently bought a house on a corner plot. The wall to the side of the house is 1/2 brick thick and over 2m tall. It is original to the house and starting to see the end of its life. As to rebuild it to the height would require it to be 3x as thick it would cost a hell of a lot being 9m long so a fence would be more appropriate however behind the wall is a patch of grass that seems to be unused. It could be highways or council but no one maintains it - we have started cutting the grass there - it is thick with ivy over 10 years old (google earth) which has caused the wall to fail as roots have grown to above the top of the wall and are pulling it down.

I assume that to pull the wall down and replace with a fence of similar height would need planning permission?
The wall cannot be seen from the road as it is covered entirely with ivy. There are no sightline issues with the neighbours as the wall curves away from their property at the back of us.
A 1m wall is not an option as I have a dog who could easily jump that and I cannot bring a new fence further in to my land as part of the old wall that separates me and our back neighbours is solid and therefore remaining, this is also 1 full brick thick instead of a half.

Confused as to what options we have. Council will only talk to us if we pay an advice fee. Not sure if we are even classed as adjacent to the highway as the grass verge between our wall and path is 1.5-2.5m wide.



Any info would be appreciated.
Thank you!

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thin and crispy
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Re: Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

Post by thin and crispy » Thu May 09, 2019 1:56 am

I wouldn't have thought that your LA would be able to prevent you from erecting a fence the same height and length as your existing wall - although maybe a more informed member will have a different opinion.

How old is the wall?

I would take plenty of photos of the wall and its ivy covering - and continue to take them as you remove the ivy. That way, if you build a fence of the same size, you'll be able to prove there was previously a wall there. If you remove the wall, I would erect the fence pretty soon thereafter.
Prejudice, not being founded on reason, cannot be removed by argument. Samuel Johnson.

SJC14
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Re: Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

Post by SJC14 » Thu May 09, 2019 12:13 pm

thin and crispy wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 1:56 am
I wouldn't have thought that your LA would be able to prevent you from erecting a fence the same height and length as your existing wall - although maybe a more informed member will have a different opinion.

How old is the wall?

I would take plenty of photos of the wall and its ivy covering - and continue to take them as you remove the ivy. That way, if you build a fence of the same size, you'll be able to prove there was previously a wall there. If you remove the wall, I would erect the fence pretty soon thereafter.
Thought exactly the same. If the wall was there for 10 years and it is a like for like replacement height wise and you photograph before and after then I can't see an issue.

essex_grl
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Re: Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

Post by essex_grl » Fri May 10, 2019 3:19 pm

I think the wall has been there as long as the house has and the house was built in 1987. I don't think it would be legal to build a wall 10m long, 2.2m tall and only half a brick thick these days.

It can't even be seen from the road as the ivy is like none I have ever seen, the roots are so huge they are the cause of the wall failing by pulling it down from the top. This stuff is 5m tall and about 8ft deep behind the wall - on the land that seems to be no mans land.

The ivy is going to have to come down before anything can be built in its place but we would do it all in one go just don't want council giving me issues for putting in a fence they class as adjacent to the highway and therefore only allowing it 1m high. That will not contain my dog.

MacadamB53
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Re: Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

Post by MacadamB53 » Fri May 10, 2019 9:40 pm

SJC14 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:13 pm
thin and crispy wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 1:56 am
I wouldn't have thought that your LA would be able to prevent you from erecting a fence the same height and length as your existing wall - although maybe a more informed member will have a different opinion.

How old is the wall?

I would take plenty of photos of the wall and its ivy covering - and continue to take them as you remove the ivy. That way, if you build a fence of the same size, you'll be able to prove there was previously a wall there. If you remove the wall, I would erect the fence pretty soon thereafter.
Thought exactly the same. If the wall was there for 10 years and it is a like for like replacement height wise and you photograph before and after then I can't see an issue.
replacing a gate, fence or wall would involve removing the old then erecting a new structure:

Permitted development
A. The erection, construction, maintenance, improvement or alteration of a gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure.
Development not permitted
A.1 Development is not permitted by Class A if—
(a)the height of any gate, fence, wall or means of enclosure erected or constructed adjacent to a highway used by vehicular traffic would, after the carrying out of the development, exceed—

(i)for a school, 2 metres above ground level, provided that any part of the gate, fence, wall or means of enclosure which is more than 1 metre above ground level does not create an obstruction to the view of persons using the highway as to be likely to cause danger to such persons;

(ii)in any other case, 1 metre above ground level;

(b)the height of any other gate, fence, wall or means of enclosure erected or constructed would exceed 2 metres above ground level;

(c)the height of any gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure maintained, improved or altered would, as a result of the development, exceed its former height or the height referred to in paragraph (a) or (b) as the height appropriate to it if erected or constructed, whichever is the greater; or

(d)it would involve development within the curtilage of, or to a gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure surrounding, a listed building.

IdefixUK
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Re: Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

Post by IdefixUK » Fri May 10, 2019 10:13 pm

Hello,
In your first post you say the wall is over two metres in height. MacadamB53 has posted the regulations concerning permitted development for you. I read this: that Part (c) allows you to replace the wall with a fence up to the height of the existing wall,
Provided that (part)d)) the building it encloses is not a listed building.
I would advise that you get someone else there to witness you measuring the existing height of the wall at various points along its length. This would be sensible because if the wall is not really visible from the outside of your property now, then you may need to evidence its existing height if the local planners were to take issue in the future. Take photos as well showing something of a known height against the wall. Of course you may not wish to go fully up to the height of the existing wall, that would be OK as well.

Regards

MacadamB53
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Re: Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

Post by MacadamB53 » Sat May 11, 2019 12:20 am

Hi IdefixUK,

I read this: that Part (c) allows you to replace the wall with a fence up to the height of the existing wall

then you’ve misread it - there’s no mention whatsoever of “replace”.

kind regards, Mac

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thin and crispy
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Re: Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

Post by thin and crispy » Sat May 11, 2019 2:04 am

MacadamB53 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:20 am
Hi IdefixUK,

I read this: that Part (c) allows you to replace the wall with a fence up to the height of the existing wall

then you’ve misread it - there’s no mention whatsoever of “replace”.

kind regards, Mac
The phrase 'maintained, improved or altered' would seem to cover it. Surely replacement with a fence could be considered 'improved' (although that word is a bit too subjective for my liking); and the 'means of enclosure' is definitely 'altered'. So it would seem that the limit is the greater of the heights referenced in sections (a), (b) and (c). It is not the clearest of wording though.
Prejudice, not being founded on reason, cannot be removed by argument. Samuel Johnson.

IdefixUK
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Re: Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

Post by IdefixUK » Sat May 11, 2019 8:50 am

Ok. To keep Mac and the planners happy you should leave one brick in place and alter the rest of the wall into a fence.

Regards

pilman
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Re: Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

Post by pilman » Sat May 11, 2019 12:38 pm

(c)the height of any gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure maintained, improved or altered would, as a result of the development, exceed its former height or the height referred to in paragraph (a) or (b) as the height appropriate to it if erected or constructed, whichever is the greater;
In order to comply with permitted development rights as set out in the above sub-section, the important thing to establish is whether there is currently a "means of enclosure"
Then if that can be proven, there is a question of how high it is.

After reading the initial posting there is most certainly a means of enclosure that comprises a brick wall stated to be over 2 metres in height.

So how can this means of enclosure be improved?
It can be demolished and then the new means of enclosure can be an improved version of the original means of enclosure comprising a wooden fence rather than a brick wall.

A standard height for a wood panel fence is 1.8 metres, or with a gravel board it can be increased to a height of 2 metres, which is less than the height of the current means of enclosure.

The posting that suggested a few photos to confirm the height of the current wall would be sensible, although on the evidence posted so far it is most unlikely that the local planning authority will be able claim that the replacement means of enclosure does not meet the definition stated in Part 2, Class A of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015, which granted permission for the proposed development, which will in fact improve and alter that which is no longer fit for purpose as a means of enclosure.

essex_grl
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Re: Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

Post by essex_grl » Sat May 11, 2019 4:41 pm

We’re hopeful to keep the first 2-3 rows of bricks of the walls as they are 1 brick thick and still sound. Thinking somehow fence on top of that of rebuilt the columns and insert smaller panels then we still have the base of the original wall.

I will get photots taken of both sides and the height. Not sure what we do with the curved part of the wall but sure someone who does fences for a living can give us some ideas.

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thin and crispy
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Re: Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

Post by thin and crispy » Sat May 11, 2019 5:57 pm

essex_grl wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 4:41 pm
We’re hopeful to keep the first 2-3 rows of bricks of the walls as they are 1 brick thick and still sound. Thinking somehow fence on top of that of rebuilt the columns and insert smaller panels then we still have the base of the original wall.

I will get photots taken of both sides and the height. Not sure what we do with the curved part of the wall but sure someone who does fences for a living can give us some ideas.
I'm just a DIYer, but I suspect you'd find it easier and cheaper to remove all of the old brickwork and use new gravel boards between new posts and standard-width panels. Trying to work around existing structures, especially if they aren't straight, might be more trouble than its worth.
Prejudice, not being founded on reason, cannot be removed by argument. Samuel Johnson.

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Re: Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

Post by ukmicky » Sat May 11, 2019 6:08 pm

I thought this was settled Law due to old appeal cases where it was determined that where a substantial section of a wall or fence over 1 meter that’s sits adjacent to the highway is removed and rebuilt, it will deemed to be new development requiring planning permission and will not be permitted development.

If my memory serves me well ,in one case a 1.8 meter wall was demolished and rebuilt, They left 7 rows of the old brick in place which was said to equate to a 3rd of the height of the wall and rebuilt above back to the original 1.8 meters .

An enforcement notice was served and it went to appeal which was lost as the new portion which equated to 2 thirds of the wall was too substantial to be permitted development and was new development requiring planning permission
Last edited by ukmicky on Sat May 11, 2019 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

essex_grl
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Re: Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

Post by essex_grl » Sat May 11, 2019 6:45 pm

That is our concern that we will end up only being allowed a 1m tall wall due to the pathway behind the wall albeit 2ms back from the edge.

If we were to remove the wall down to the last few rows of bricks and rebuild the wall would it be allowed under the maintenance? We don’t have funds for a wall that large hence wanting to use fencing. Our dog could jump a 1m tall wall and I can’t bring it in any closer to our house as it follows on from a corner wall that is staying put.

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Re: Wall into fence? Highway adjacent or not?

Post by ukmicky » Sat May 11, 2019 6:56 pm

Also adjacent can and normally does include verges .

The thing to do would be to apply for an LDC before you do anything.


Can it not be repointed ?


Do you have a picture showing it’s condition
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