hedges on “local open space”

yawa
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Re: hedges on “local open space”

Post by yawa » Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:54 am

The street was never adopted by the council hence never stopped up. Highways have no record of it at all. It now remains an area of unregistered land. From historical maps and material I found at the National Archives you can see the area was originally farmland, then an open space between 2 parcels of land before being noted as a street, albeit a rather short one.

ukmicky
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Re: hedges on “local open space”

Post by ukmicky » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:56 pm

then an open space between 2 parcels of land before being noted as a street, albeit a rather short one.

For this land to be yours under the presumption it had to have been part of your title before the street was created or presumed to be part of your title .You don’t need to provide positive proof to that fact as its normally impossible to supply such evidence due to the way they record true ownership of land which incorporates some private roads and highways.

However even though you don’t need to provide positive proof this land was originally part of your title before it became a street as you are aware the presumption only stands if there is no evidence that the land the street ran over was not part of your title at the time the street was created . It doesn’t become yours under the presumption simply because a street was placed on land adjacent to yours.

Above you say before the street was created the historical maps show there was open Space between two parcels of land which I assume is your current property and your neighbour on the other side. That’s evidence that this land was not part of your title when the street became a street because if it was Part of your title before it become a street the historical maps wouldn’t have shown open land between two parcels of land, it would show your parcel of land directly abutting the other parcel of land on the other side.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

IdefixUK
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Re: hedges on “local open space”

Post by IdefixUK » Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:46 am

yawa,

I agree with ukmicky. The presence of open land (where the street later existed) on the old maps (which also show what is now your property), is evidence that no presumtion of ownership of half (or any) of that land can be made by you.

From what we now know my advice to you, for what it is worth, is not to proceed with your plans to plant anything on that land. Simply, it is not within your title, neither can it be presumed to be so. Quite apart from the fact that this land is now designated open space and may well be covered by public rights of way.

Regards

yawa
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Re: hedges on “local open space”

Post by yawa » Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:08 am

Thanks for the advice guys. Much appreciated. On closer inspection there are some buildings on one of the plots so you could argue the open space was a private road which may have serviced them. It certainly doesn’t seem black and white!

arborlad
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Re: hedges on “local open space”

Post by arborlad » Fri Feb 28, 2020 12:56 pm

yawa wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:10 am
There is a plot of unregistered land next to my property that used to be a street. Under “ad medium filum ” I believe half of this land to me mine. I would like to erect a hedge to encapsulate this (no planning permission required). My concern is that the council state the land falls within “local open space” within their planning documents. Would they have the power to make me take the hedges down?


What would be your intention for this land post hedge planting?
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

ukmicky
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Re: hedges on “local open space”

Post by ukmicky » Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:38 am

yawa wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:08 am
Thanks for the advice guys. Much appreciated. On closer inspection there are some buildings on one of the plots so you could argue the open space was a private road which may have serviced them. It certainly doesn’t seem black and white!
No it’s now very grey and grey is not good if you want to rely on a presumption.

The problem you now have ,is because the old maps show doubt this land was originally part of your title before it become a street , you can’t now simply rely on the presumption and will need to provide real tangible evidence which shows it was originally part of your title.

Which is world away from your original position.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

pilman
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Re: hedges on “local open space”

Post by pilman » Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:25 pm

No it’s now very grey and grey is not good if you want to rely on a presumption.

The problem you now have ,is because the old maps show doubt this land was originally part of your title before it become a street , you can’t now simply rely on the presumption and will need to provide real tangible evidence which shows it was originally part of your title.

Which is world away from your original position.
The legal presumption is rebuttable, which is not what has been quoted above where it is implied that it is up to the neighbouring land-owner to "prove" ownership.

It will be necessary for another person or body to prove otherwise by rebutting the presumption using evidence that will satisfy the civil law requirement that cases are decided "on the balance of probability".

Nothing on an earlier version of the Ordnance Survey maps published since the late 1800's showed the legal boundary of a property, nor the full extent of a property's ownership. That is still the situation regarding Land Registration when only the general boundary is indicated by the red line drawn on a title plan, which often follows an existing physical line drawn on a surveyed plan.

Those OS maps showed physical items that were recorded by the surveyor which would include existing walls, fences and hedges in many cases.
None of which give any indication regarding the full extent of land owned by an individual, company or body, such as a local council.

IdefixUK
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Re: hedges on “local open space”

Post by IdefixUK » Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:47 pm

pilman wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:25 pm
The legal presumption is rebuttable, which is not what has been quoted above where it is implied that it is up to the neighbouring land-owner to "prove" ownership.

It will be necessary for another person or body to prove otherwise by rebutting the presumption using evidence that will satisfy the civil law requirement that cases are decided "on the balance of probability".

Nothing on an earlier version of the Ordnance Survey maps published since the late 1800's showed the legal boundary of a property, nor the full extent of a property's ownership. That is still the situation regarding Land Registration when only the general boundary is indicated by the red line drawn on a title plan, which often follows an existing physical line drawn on a surveyed plan.

Those OS maps showed physical items that were recorded by the surveyor which would include existing walls, fences and hedges in many cases.
None of which give any indication regarding the full extent of land owned by an individual, company or body, such as a local council.
Pilman,
With all respect to you and your knowledge of such subjects, would not the early OS maps also show the "street" if it were in existence at the time of the survey. Here it would seem that the OP can identify on the old map the property now owned by them,and at that time no street on the same map. I cannot envisage a situation where, on part of land owned by the OP's predecessor( if it ever was owned by them) a "street" could have been made without transferring that area of land to, say, a local council; be that by donation or compulsory purchase. Either way I cannot see how that land can possibly be in the ownership of the OP in reality or by presumption from the date of the creation of the street.
Please enlighten me .

Thanks

ukmicky
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Re: hedges on “local open space”

Post by ukmicky » Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:05 pm

It’s the same maps that the OP wishes to use to try and show he owns this land.


For the presumption It’s also up to the OP to prove it was a highway or private ROW. The word street on an old map does not do that.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

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