Parking + ROW

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Minder
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:58 am

Parking + ROW

Post by Minder »

Hi,

I have owned a house with a courtyard (which i currently park on) for just over 1 year. The courtyard has ROW for our neighbours to access their boundries. One of our neighbours has also been parking in the courtyard which we have objected to.

Because of this they are now trying to prevent us parking in the couryard in an attempt to negotiate an agreement for them to park.

She showed us a copy of her deeds which has the following clause.

"a right of way at all times and for all purposes (in common with all others having a like right) over the roadway and yards shown on the plan"

She stated that she had been advised that us parking a car on the courtyard creates an obstruction and that she does not have ROW to every square inch of the yard because of it. She has also stated that she had an agreement with the previous owner regarding parking in the yard.

We have a legal document from the previous owners solicitor stating that there was no formal or informal arrangement for her to park and that the previous owners did park in the courtyard.

May I add that even with our car parked in the courtyard there is clear passage through.

Can anyone please advise on this.

Many thanks,

Minder
span
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Re: Parking + ROW

Post by span »

You've got a fight on your hands. She does have a point, if her ROW covers the entire courtyard. Does it?

You prepared to get legal on her? It may boil down to a judge's decision on what construes an obstruction.
Minder
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:58 am

Re: Parking + ROW

Post by Minder »

Yes I am prepared to get legal with it....Otherwise we have to park our car quite some distance from the property. Also when we bought the house our solicitor asked the vendor for clarification on the parking. We received a written reply stating that they parked there previously for many years and no one else did.

Her deeds state the following

"a right of way at all times and for all purposes (in common with all others having a like right) over the roadway and yards shown on the plan"

We could not negotiate to allow her to park in the yard as potentially all the other neighbours could also do so..There simply isn't the space.
w3526602
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Location: south wales

Re: Parking + ROW

Post by w3526602 »

Hi,

I'm guessing that if this went to court, then she would win. The question is, how much will she have to spend before you have to start spending. But two queries .....

There was something in Garden Law recently about a judge saying that a RoW did not extend over every square inch. So today you can drive over this bit, and tomorrow you might have to drive over a different bit, but you will still have room to get through. My italics, have I summed that up correctly?

It would probably not help her case if you had some evidence that she is doing this in retaliation for you stopping her parking in the yard. Do you have any evidence that this is her plan, or photographs of her car parked in your yard, dated and bundled together in a weekly registered envelope.

I suppose if you wanted to be bloody minded, you could decide that the yard surface needs relaying, dig it up ...... and then buy a Land Rover. Maybe just a ditch for a power cable, or WHY. I'm not being serious.

602
602 (That was my "last three")
Sudynim
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Re: Parking + ROW

Post by Sudynim »

w3526602 wrote:Hi,

I'm guessing that if this went to court, then she would win. The question is, how much will she have to spend before you have to start spending. But two queries .....

There was something in Garden Law recently about a judge saying that a RoW did not extend over every square inch. So today you can drive over this bit, and tomorrow you might have to drive over a different bit, but you will still have room to get through. My italics, have I summed that up correctly?
I think that she would be far from certain to win. As long as the parked vehicle did not obstruct her in freely passing through the yard, obviously.
Last edited by Sudynim on Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sudynim
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Re: Parking + ROW

Post by Sudynim »

Minder wrote:Hi,

I have owned a house with a courtyard (which i currently park on) for just over 1 year. The courtyard has ROW for our neighbours to access their boundries. One of our neighbours has also been parking in the courtyard which we have objected to.

Because of this they are now trying to prevent us parking in the couryard in an attempt to negotiate an agreement for them to park.

She showed us a copy of her deeds which has the following clause.

"a right of way at all times and for all purposes (in common with all others having a like right) over the roadway and yards shown on the plan"

She stated that she had been advised that us parking a car on the courtyard creates an obstruction and that she does not have ROW to every square inch of the yard because of it. She has also stated that she had an agreement with the previous owner regarding parking in the yard.
Is it just me, or is her logic fatally flawed? She claims that if any square inch of the yard is occupied by a vehicle, then the ROW enjoyed by a number of neighbours is unlawfully obstructed. And she then demands that you must allow her to park there, thus obstructing the ROW of the other neighbours....!

In effect she's saying "If you don't allow me to obstruct the ROW, I will complain that you're obstructing the ROW". Any court case brought in those terms would stink of bad faith and cynical dishonesty.

I think you should tell her that you have decided that one vehicle can be parked in the yard without significantly obstructing the ROW, and you are reserving that use of your land for your own car. You believe that a court would not find this to be unreasonable, but if anyone brings a case you will of course respect any order made (although you may appeal to obtain clarification from a higher court).

You cannot agree to her parking in the yard as well, because you believe this would cause an unreasonable obstruction to other users of the ROW. If she believes that she has established a specific right to park in the yard, but if she chooses to bring a case then.... as above.

I am not a lawyer, but I think you have a strong hand to brush off this cheeky bullying tactic.
ukmicky
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Re: Parking + ROW

Post by ukmicky »

Minder

Some of the other replies are wrong and she has been advised wrongly .

Their is plenty of case law in your favour providing she can still get from A to B . If she can you will not be causing a substantial interference with her rights and can park on your own land because she would not win any court action.

She does not legally have to be able to access every inch or foot of any land with forms the right of way..

Tell her to stop parking on your land and that she needs to see a real solicitor as the person who advised her knows nothing about the law inregards to substantial interference.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
w3526602
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Location: south wales

Re: Parking + ROW

Post by w3526602 »

Hi Minder,

Does your neighbour(s) have parking in her own plot, or does she have the problem that you will have if you can't park in your own yard?

I visulise your property as being part of a converted farm building complex. ??? If so, it is propbably a fairly recent development. What did the Planners have to say about parking? I wonder if there is a Google picture showing her car parked in your yard.

602
602 (That was my "last three")
RUHEAP
Posts: 44
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Re: Parking + ROW

Post by RUHEAP »

from ruheap..my neighbour has a row over my land.... on checking with the registry was told the row has no dimensions... the user of the row has made it 20 feet wide.....i want to make sure this does not become a permanent situation or makes it as wide as they wish ...without it becoming an issue....would welcome any sensible idea as to how others would handle a situation such as this. Also they park their 3 black plastic dustbins and green wheely bin & medical refuse bins on this row ....i am not en-hammered with the situation..looks terrible. nb this is the same neighbour the has since 2000 fly tipped on my garden...
Sudynim
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Re: Parking + ROW

Post by Sudynim »

ukmicky wrote:Minder

Some of the other replies are wrong and she has been advised wrongly .

Their is plenty of case law in your favour providing she can still get from A to B . If she can you will not be causing a substantial interference with her rights and can park on your own land because she would not win any court action.

She does not legally have to be able to access every inch or foot of any land with forms the right of way..

Tell her to stop parking on your land and that she needs to see a real solicitor as the person who advised her knows nothing about the law inregards to substantial interference.
I agree.
Minder
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:58 am

Re: Parking + ROW

Post by Minder »

Thank you very much for the replies, they have been very helpful.

She does have parking on her own land which is only a matter of about 8 yards from where she parks in the yard....Its simply more convienient for her. None of the other neighbours ever park on it.

As i said earlier they are trying to prove that we also should not be parking there in an attempt to negotiate an agreement for her to park. They are asking us where we established are right to park.

The letter from her solicitor stated that she had an agreement with the previous owner to park there. We have checked our documentation and found a property information form filled in by the previous owners stating that there was no formal or informal arrangement.

I also have a letter from there solicitor in answer to a number of qustions stating " the yard is owned by the subject property and our clients park on it. The other properties which lie around the yard all have right of way to their respective curtledges but no parking rights exist in favour of any other party".

Is this information sufficient for us to prove our right to park..?

Thanks,

Minder
Sudynim
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Re: Parking + ROW

Post by Sudynim »

Minder wrote:I also have a letter from there solicitor in answer to a number of qustions stating " the yard is owned by the subject property and our clients park on it. The other properties which lie around the yard all have right of way to their respective curtledges but no parking rights exist in favour of any other party".

Is this information sufficient for us to prove our right to park..?
It's your land, you don't have to prove anything. If the neighbour believes she has a right to park there, then she must prove it.
pilman
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Re: Parking + ROW

Post by pilman »

As the owner of land there is only one thing that you cannot do on that land, which is to cause a substantial obstruction, if other property has a granted right of way over the land.

In this case as a previous poster mentions, the objection is not really that you cannot park on your own land, it is that you should allow the neighbour to also park on your land thus causing even more of an obstruction that may then become substantial enough to meet the legal definition.

You may want to turn that fact back against the neighbour, by explaining that is why you will not grant any permission for them to park on your land.
With two cars on the land there is far greater risk that a substantial obstruction of the right of way will being caused, but on the present facts, with only one single car being parked, it is considered that no obstruction is being caused that would be an actionable obstruction.

English courts now consider matters of Law and of Equity whenever a civil matter comes before a court.
The principle of Equity is that matters of fairness can be taken into account just as much as the accurate reflection of the Law. As this neighbour is actively seeking to increase the risk of there being a substantial obstruction of the right of way by seeking to locate another vehicle on your land, that fact will definitely be held against the neighbour if they were prepared to seek a ruling as to whether you are already creating a substantial obstruction to their granted right of way.

There have indeed been a number of judgements where the court has stated that not all of the land has to be left vacant if there is sufficient room left to exercise the right of way as granted.
Certainly if this is a pedestrian right of way, it seems unlikely that all of the yard needs to be kept unobstructed in order that the dominant land-owner can decide where they want to perambulate about your property.
A right of way should have a start point and and end point, so if one has to walk around a parked car to reach either of those points, then that is something that the rule of Equity will consider when reaching a fair decision on any such legal claim of obstruction.

As I have repeated many times on this web-site, you are being subjected to the the Bullshit Baffles Brains system of lawyering when solicitors seem to consider that they can say anything that sounds as though it carries legal merit, rather than accurately reflecting what many years of case law has already ruled on.
Minder
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Re: Parking + ROW

Post by Minder »

pilman wrote:As the owner of land there is only one thing that you cannot do on that land, which is to cause a substantial obstruction, if other property has a granted right of way over the land.

In this case as a previous poster mentions, the objection is not really that you cannot park on your own land, it is that you should allow the neighbour to also park on your land thus causing even more of an obstruction that may then become substantial enough to meet the legal definition.

You may want to turn that fact back against the neighbour, by explaining that is why you will not grant any permission for them to park on your land.
With two cars on the land there is far greater risk that a substantial obstruction of the right of way will being caused, but on the present facts, with only one single car being parked, it is considered that no obstruction is being caused that would be an actionable obstruction.

English courts now consider matters of Law and of Equity whenever a civil matter comes before a court.
The principle of Equity is that matters of fairness can be taken into account just as much as the accurate reflection of the Law. As this neighbour is actively seeking to increase the risk of there being a substantial obstruction of the right of way by seeking to locate another vehicle on your land, that fact will definitely be held against the neighbour if they were prepared to seek a ruling as to whether you are already creating a substantial obstruction to their granted right of way.

There have indeed been a number of judgements where the court has stated that not all of the land has to be left vacant if there is sufficient room left to exercise the right of way as granted.
Certainly if this is a pedestrian right of way, it seems unlikely that all of the yard needs to be kept unobstructed in order that the dominant land-owner can decide where they want to perambulate about your property.
A right of way should have a start point and and end point, so if one has to walk around a parked car to reach either of those points, then that is something that the rule of Equity will consider when reaching a fair decision on any such legal claim of obstruction.

As I have repeated many times on this web-site, you are being subjected to the the Bullshit Baffles Brains system of lawyering when solicitors seem to consider that they can say anything that sounds as though it carries legal merit, rather than accurately reflecting what many years of case law has already ruled on.
Excellent Post...All the information I have been looking for...

Many thanks,

Minder
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