Query re sale of land with row

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annie08
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Query re sale of land with row

Post by annie08 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:19 pm

Hi - please can someone tell me if the owner of land and barns adjacent to our property, and in whom we have been in dispute over many years, has to declare the dispute when selling. He has been stopped from exercising his row by our local planning authority and is selling up. We suspect he is telling prospective purchasers they will have no problem exercising the row which at present is walled off. Thanks

MacadamB53
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Re: Query re sale of land with row

Post by MacadamB53 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:22 pm

Hi annie08,

at present is walled off

How so?

Kind regards, Mac

annie08
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Re: Query re sale of land with row

Post by annie08 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:27 pm

Yes - originally there was a farmhouse with barns. The house was bought by our family a long time ago and we have half the farmyard which was converted into a garden. A stone wall was built to separate off the back half of the yard which includes the barns and they were eventually bought by the tenant farmer next door. When the house was bought by our family the original owner of the whole lot agreed to the purchase subject to establishing a 12' wide row for themselves over the driveway that runs down the side of our house. At present there is a stone wall dividing the two pieces of land and the present owner has never exercised his row as he has access to his land via the farm he rents. He wanted to demolish the barns and build himself a bunglalow but he was advised he would be unlikely to get planning permission for various reasons eg. loss of our amenities (we'd lose our off street parking), probable damage to tpo'd trees in the immediate vicinity (we are in a conservation area). This has been ongoing for years! After offering to pay to have our back garden converted into a car park, which we declined, he told us he would be arriving the following week to demolish the wall and exercise his right. The Enforcement officer from the Council put a stop on it and, as it is in a conservation area, told him he would have to provide a very good reason to demolish an historic wall and damage tpo'd trees in the process when he had perfectly good access across the farm. We have expended large amounts of money on solicitors and barristers fees and this has been ongoing for nearly ten years. Realizing he would have trouble getting planning permission to demolish the barns and build himself a bungalow, he then entered into negotiations with the owner of the adjacent farm who gained planning permission on their and his behalf for six properties ( barn conversions -four on the farm and two on the land with the barns ) all to be accessed over the existing farm entrance. The two pieces of land are now on the market, but we believe the owner of the land with the barns may not reached an agreement re the purchase price and is marketing it separately elsewhere at the same time to see if he can profit better from it. I know which company is marketing the whole lot but not who the smaller parcel of land is advertised with otherwise I would make them aware of the dispute. From experience we know that the owner has not always been entirely honest and would not be at all surprised to find he does not disclose our dispute.

MacadamB53
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Re: Query re sale of land with row

Post by MacadamB53 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:40 pm

Hi annie08,

Enforcement officer from the Council... ...told him he would have to provide a very good reason to demolish an historic wall and damage tpo'd trees in the process when he had perfectly good access across the farm.

erm, because he owns a legal interest in that land and the wall is causing a significant interference?
surely there are ways and means of taking the wall down without causing damage to trees?
is the 'historic' wall listed?

Kind regards, Mac
PS what is being disputed?

annie08
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Re: Query re sale of land with row

Post by annie08 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:43 pm

My concern is that he will imply to a possible buyer that exercising the row will be straightforward which is dishonest. There is a large self seeded sycamore with a tpo on it that has grown in the corner of the 12' strip up against the wall since the row was established. There is an unresolved dispute about whether they would be entitled to use more than 12' because of the tree ie to construct a driveway around it. They say they are entitled to take down a 30' section of the wall and garden to avoid damaging the tree and have not accepted our solicitors insistence this is not the case. A raised garden was created on the original farmyard and is only about 3' deep which is why the tree would be damaged. He did apply to have it demolished and answered the question "who owns the tree?" with the reply "not known"! The TPO officer refused. The row was established in the early 1900's although the wall had been before that ( using the stone from the dairy that had stood in the farmyard) but it's not listed. I accept that he is the legal owner of the row, however I am convinced that if the boot was on the other foot, he would be resisting as much as we are. We, at least, have not resorted to lies, dishonesty or malicious acts but have stayed within the law. This is not the only land he owns, he is not impoverished by any means and is not financially dependent on the sale. He has other options for disposal ie selling to the owner of the farm who has expended thousands of pounds on plans and planning applications which will have to be amended if he manages to find someone who will pay him a bit more. Our stance might have been different if he was an honourable and good neighbour but this is not the case unfortunately.

stufe35
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Re: Query re sale of land with row

Post by stufe35 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:05 pm

If he gave up renting the farm across which he currently accesses this land, how would he then access it ?

annie08
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Re: Query re sale of land with row

Post by annie08 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:29 pm

He would be landlocked but the owner of the farm wants to buy it from him or develop it jointly for dwellings.

stufe35
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Re: Query re sale of land with row

Post by stufe35 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:03 pm

So that is why it was sold with a right of way through your property...so that it isn't landlocked.

Do I understand correctly, you have acquired a property with a row through it, quite deliberately reserved by the original owner to allow access to some other land. For the last xxx years it hasn't been used, because the owner has used an alternative route as he happened to rent land adjacent to it on the other side. Now he wants to use the row you don't want him to.

A couple of questions I'm unsure of.

Why don't you want him to use it ? And/or why do you feel he shouldn't.
What exactly is the dispute you have had for years....?. you say you accept he has a row.
Who does own the tree ?
Have you offered to buy the row off him ?

MacadamB53
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Re: Query re sale of land with row

Post by MacadamB53 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:53 pm

Hi annie08,

is this you:

http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewt ... f=8&t=3626

Kind regards, Mac

Scrambler
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Re: Query re sale of land with row

Post by Scrambler » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:34 pm

How has a sycamore aka a weed ended up with a TPO on it ?

annie08
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Re: Query re sale of land with row

Post by annie08 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:16 pm

Scrambler wrote:How has a sycamore aka a weed ended up with a TPO on it ?
It seeded itself after the row was established yonks ago. We are in a conservation area. The TPO officer inspected all the trees in the village at some point and slapped a TPO on it - God bless him!

ukmicky
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Re: Query re sale of land with row

Post by ukmicky » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:45 pm

The council cant ultimately use the access through the rented land as reason not to allow access along the row to be reinstated

The council i believe also have to consider if this tree is causing a harmful effect on their enjoyment of the property. If it is which it definitely is as the rented land cant be taken into account i can't see how they can ultimately refuse the access being opened back up.


Its no different to a TPO tree growing in front of your front door preventing you from getting into or out of your house, the council may not like the idea of allowing work to allow access but in the end who do you think will win.

TO or Treeman am i right?
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

MacadamB53
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Re: Query re sale of land with row

Post by MacadamB53 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:13 am

annie08 wrote:
Scrambler wrote:How has a sycamore aka a weed ended up with a TPO on it ?
It seeded itself after the row was established yonks ago. We are in a conservation area. The TPO officer inspected all the trees in the village at some point and slapped a TPO on it - God bless him!
Hi Annie,

Why would he do that if you're in a CA?
Did someone request work on all the trees in village?

Kind regards, Mac

MacadamB53
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Re: Query re sale of land with row

Post by MacadamB53 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:14 am

ukmicky wrote:The council cant ultimately use the access through the rented land as reason not to allow access along the row to be reinstated

The council i believe also have to consider if this tree is causing a harmful effect on their enjoyment of the property. If it is which it definitely is as the rented land cant be taken into account i can't see how they can ultimately refuse the access being opened back up.


Its no different to a TPO tree growing in front of your front door preventing you from getting into or out of your house, the council may not like the idea of allowing work to allow access but in the end who do you think will win.

TO or Treeman am i right?
+1

annie08
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Re: Query re sale of land with row

Post by annie08 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:02 pm

stufe35 wrote:
Why don't you want him to use it ? And/or why do you feel he shouldn't.
What exactly is the dispute you have had for years....?. you say you accept he has a row.
Who does own the tree ?
Have you offered to buy the row off him ?
We own the tree. We are hoping the issue can be resolved without us purchasing the row.The row has never been exercised and the dispute was about whether it could given events since it was established eg the growth of the tree and the introduction of a raised garden on part of it. (Not done by us). We now accept he could exercise his right but how he could do it while the tree remains is questionable. The row is restricted to 12' wide, the tree has grown in what is a raised garden built on the former farmyard and is only 3' deep so the roots are shallow. They tried to say they could divert around the tree and produced a plan taking 30' and showing a raised section that would accommodate the tree roots. Our solicitor says they can only have 12' as stipulated. Also the planners say he would have difficulty getting planning permission for two dwellings using our driveway.We would lose our privacy as, at present, we are not overlooked at all. We would lose our off street parking as we could not park on the driveway anymore. As I've said before he has other options, he could claim an established use of the farm access for the last fifty years plus or he could sell to the farm owner who wants to buy it.

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