Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

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beardsince1978
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Post by beardsince1978 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:07 pm

Going back to ROW issue, I don't believe anyone has mentioned "ransom strip". The OP said that it was the NfH that sold him the property. So at a later date putting in posts is sort of creating a ransom strip, OP cannot turn into his drive. Ransom strips are not allowed from what I read. There is "easement by necessity" argument (I read) when the easement is over the vendors land (IANAL).

OP might want to check out autoturn. You can get a free account for some many days and then plot vehicle tracks to get into your property. Could be useful to prove you case. I've done this. My method was to grab a screen from the planning explorer my local council planning web site has. I assume all council will have one. It is OS map data with planning, building regs and other layers you can turn on and off. You can also measure length and area on screen with the tool. So with my screenshot saved I then measure the distance between 2 points on the map for a scale. I used draftsight next (a free autocad). In that you can import a picture (my screen shot) which you can scale so I fiddled with N factor so the measured value in draftsight was same as on planning explorer. Next I traced over the key lines in draftsight to give me dwg file (deleted the image when I was finished). I then signed up with autoturn for my free trial and imported my dwg. I could then use autoturn with various vehicles to plot how they would get in. Having started from dwg the exports were dwg so those files I could bring into draftsight to use in other drawings.

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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Post by Collaborate » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:32 pm

beardsince1978 wrote:Going back to ROW issue, I don't believe anyone has mentioned "ransom strip". The OP said that it was the NfH that sold him the property. So at a later date putting in posts is sort of creating a ransom strip, OP cannot turn into his drive. Ransom strips are not allowed from what I read. There is "easement by necessity" argument (I read) when the easement is over the vendors land (IANAL).

OP might want to check out autoturn. You can get a free account for some many days and then plot vehicle tracks to get into your property. Could be useful to prove you case. I've done this. My method was to grab a screen from the planning explorer my local council planning web site has. I assume all council will have one. It is OS map data with planning, building regs and other layers you can turn on and off. You can also measure length and area on screen with the tool. So with my screenshot saved I then measure the distance between 2 points on the map for a scale. I used draftsight next (a free autocad). In that you can import a picture (my screen shot) which you can scale so I fiddled with N factor so the measured value in draftsight was same as on planning explorer. Next I traced over the key lines in draftsight to give me dwg file (deleted the image when I was finished). I then signed up with autoturn for my free trial and imported my dwg. I could then use autoturn with various vehicles to plot how they would get in. Having started from dwg the exports were dwg so those files I could bring into draftsight to use in other drawings.
1. I don't know where you get the idea that ransom strips aren't allowed. They are allowed.

2. I think you misunderstand what a ransom strip is if you equate it to post marking the boundary of a property.

beardsince1978
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Post by beardsince1978 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:47 pm

I would define a ransom strip is anything which prevents you from accessing your property. In this case the fact the entrance is not swept as a normal road layout would require. This is now being indicated by the posts. http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/boun ... ments.html mentions easement by necessity. I can't find the article I read but the gist was that the vendor could not keep a ransom strip (others can have a ransom strip) and sell land. The vendor must include access with the land (AFAIR law of property act 1925 as mention in the link). As the NfH sold the property to OP then he must include access. Of course, the argument becomes is this access or not? Splays are a common requirement on road layout and mandatory even if you apply for a dropped kerb. There might be something useful in "Design Bulletin 32 - Residential Roads and Footpaths 1992". Should he have included splays? Is there any current vehicle that can do a 90 deg turn only in a single carriageway road width?

MacadamB53
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Post by MacadamB53 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:03 pm

beardsince1978 wrote:I would define a ransom strip is anything which prevents you from accessing your property. In this case the fact the entrance is not swept as a normal road layout would require. This is now being indicated by the posts. http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/boun ... ments.html mentions easement by necessity. I can't find the article I read but the gist was that the vendor could not keep a ransom strip (others can have a ransom strip) and sell land. The vendor must include access with the land (AFAIR law of property act 1925 as mention in the link). As the NfH sold the property to OP then he must include access. Of course, the argument becomes is this access or not? Splays are a common requirement on road layout and mandatory even if you apply for a dropped kerb. There might be something useful in "Design Bulletin 32 - Residential Roads and Footpaths 1992". Should he have included splays? Is there any current vehicle that can do a 90 deg turn only in a single carriageway road width?
there isn't a ransom strip in the scenario being discussed - the property has a ROW but the OP would prefer this to be wider than the 5m he originally agreed to (because he thought he was agreeing to a 5m wide ROW plus a bit extra when needed).

beardsince1978
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Post by beardsince1978 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:34 pm

I believe it is a 2.5m track which turns into a 5m opening, but this has right angle corners, no splays. In order to get a car to turn in to this you would need to drive until back wheels are at the first post then hard lock to swing the nose in. A typical car is 4.5m but the wheels are in a bit from the back so call it 4m nose to rear wheels and you have 1m to do the turn. Sounds a bit tight if you think of it as a parking space, 1m to the car in front, can you get out of that space and you have to assume it is a wider car that you need to clear the verge bit as well. That is, image you are parked 1m behind a wide lorry, can you get out? As I said I'd plot it with Autoturn as you might find there are very few cars that can do the turn even though it sounds a wide gap.

MacadamB53
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Post by MacadamB53 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:06 pm

beardsince1978 wrote:I believe it is a 2.5m track which turns into a 5m opening, but this has right angle corners, no splays. In order to get a car to turn in to this you would need to drive until back wheels are at the first post then hard lock to swing the nose in. A typical car is 4.5m but the wheels are in a bit from the back so call it 4m nose to rear wheels and you have 1m to do the turn. Sounds a bit tight if you think of it as a parking space, 1m to the car in front, can you get out of that space and you have to assume it is a wider car that you need to clear the verge bit as well. That is, image you are parked 1m behind a wide lorry, can you get out? As I said I'd plot it with Autoturn as you might find there are very few cars that can do the turn even though it sounds a wide gap.
following this logic, you're argument seems to be that all properties come with an easement by necessity in the form of a ROW over neighbouring properties as required that is wide enough to drive any vehicle?

the property in question can be enjoyed by way of the expressly granted easement the OP asked for - one can walk to it, cycle to it, ride a horse to it, or drive a smaller-sized motor vehicle to it - much like many other properties.

it is preposterous to suggest the property comes with an additional easement by necessity purely to allow for larger-sized motor vehicles.

kind regards, Mac

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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Post by Collaborate » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:21 pm

beardsince1978 wrote:I would define a ransom strip is anything which prevents you from accessing your property.
So that would include a nightclub bouncer then?

May I suggest you educate yourself on what a ransom strip is? Perhaps take a look at the RICS definition here: http://www.rics.org/uk/knowledge/glossa ... om-strips/

As for easement of necessity, this is what Practical Law has to say on the subject:
An easement of necessity (most often a right of way) will arise where there is a disposition of part and there is no other legally enforceable means of access. The implication arises from the presumed intention of the parties. It may operate by way of grant, if it is the land disposed of that is landlocked, or by way of reservation, if it is the retained land that is landlocked.
The test of necessity can be a high one; for example, access by water can be enough to prevent a right of way over land arising by necessity (Manjang v Drammeh (1991) 61 P 194). No right of way of necessity arises if at the time of the implied grant, the claimant owned other land which gave access (Midland Ry v Miles [1886] 33 Ch.D 632).
The extent of the easement of necessity is limited to what was necessary for the use of the servient land as it was at the time of the implied grant, or for such use as was then contemplated by the parties (Gayford v Moffatt, [1868] 4 Ch App 133 and Corporation of London v Riggs [1880] 13 Ch. D 798).

Note it does not say "...no other legally enforceable means of access with a wide vehicle"

arborlad
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Post by arborlad » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:49 am

MacadamB53 wrote:...........it is preposterous to suggest the property comes with an additional easement by necessity purely to allow for larger-sized motor vehicles.


The OP is not arguing for anything additional - he is still using the same vehicle as at time of grant.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

jonahinoz
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Post by jonahinoz » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:18 am

Hi,

I assume that the 2.5m wide road is not a public highway?

Are the grass verges both sides of the 2.5m road in the same ownership?

Is the 2.5mm road documented anywhere as being that width? There has been correspondence in the past, on this forum, about the width of RoWs, and how much they can be obstructed, if at all.

John W

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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Post by Collaborate » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:36 am

arborlad wrote:
MacadamB53 wrote:...........it is preposterous to suggest the property comes with an additional easement by necessity purely to allow for larger-sized motor vehicles.


The OP is not arguing for anything additional - he is still using the same vehicle as at time of grant.
But it is not for the grantor of the ROW to ensure that what OP negotiates is fit for OP's intended purpose. OP's property is not landlocked, so there is no easement of necessity. There is a case of Sweet v Sommer [2004] All ER (D) 312. where an easement of necessity was allowed even though there was another method of access, but that was because that other means of access could only be made possible by demolishing a building. this is not in the same category as Sweet and Simmer.

MacadamB53
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Post by MacadamB53 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:36 am

arborlad wrote:
MacadamB53 wrote:...........it is preposterous to suggest the property comes with an additional easement by necessity purely to allow for larger-sized motor vehicles.


The OP is not arguing for anything additional
my post was addressing the argument put forward by beardsince1978, not the OP.

beardsince1978
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Post by beardsince1978 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:20 am

MacadamB53 wrote:
arborlad wrote:
MacadamB53 wrote:...........it is preposterous to suggest the property comes with an additional easement by necessity purely to allow for larger-sized motor vehicles.


The OP is not arguing for anything additional
my post was addressing the argument put forward by beardsince1978, not the OP.
OP is using the same vehicle I believe and we don't actually know the size of that. My point was that even though 2.5m track and 5m opening sounds large it may not be when there is no splay. Personally I would try this on Autoturn and see what that reveals. Maybe no cars can do the turn or only really tiny ones. It would at least give the OP a better idea of the problem and how he might change his drive inside to make things easier.

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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Post by MacadamB53 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:51 am

beardsince1978 wrote:My point was that even though 2.5m track and 5m opening sounds large it may not be when there is no splay. Personally I would try this on Autoturn and see what that reveals. Maybe no cars can do the turn or only really tiny ones. It would at least give the OP a better idea of the problem and how he might change his drive inside to make things easier.
it will never show the property has an easement by necessity, though, which was what you originally suggested.

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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Post by Collaborate » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:53 am

MacadamB53 wrote:
beardsince1978 wrote:My point was that even though 2.5m track and 5m opening sounds large it may not be when there is no splay. Personally I would try this on Autoturn and see what that reveals. Maybe no cars can do the turn or only really tiny ones. It would at least give the OP a better idea of the problem and how he might change his drive inside to make things easier.
it will never show the property has an easement by necessity, though, which was what you originally suggested.
+1

beardsince1978
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Re: Obstructing my right of way outside of the right of way

Post by beardsince1978 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:41 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:
beardsince1978 wrote:My point was that even though 2.5m track and 5m opening sounds large it may not be when there is no splay. Personally I would try this on Autoturn and see what that reveals. Maybe no cars can do the turn or only really tiny ones. It would at least give the OP a better idea of the problem and how he might change his drive inside to make things easier.
it will never show the property has an easement by necessity, though, which was what you originally suggested.
Maybe we will have to agree to differ on this. But to my mind the question is what is a reasonable ROW. Say ROW was 1m wide, would that reasonable? Or should be able to take a car? What size car? The NfH sold the OP the property and a property much be sold with access. The question is, what is legally an acceptable access? Is there a definition? I'm willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt and assume that he has normal sized car and can drive reasonable well and that the layout is what makes it impossible (?) to get in.

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