With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Re: With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Postby span » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:57 am

arborlad wrote:
span wrote:Something funny going on here.

Why would they effectively landlock themselves by surrendering their access via No 5? Who would do that?

Unless they were certain they had a cast iron alternative access via your property? It makes no sense otherwise.




The way the OP describes it, 14s access to the highway was via an easement over land owned by No 5, that land was subsequently bought by No 14, this is reflected in the plan so not landlocked..........perhaps No 14 also wants rear access as well.


I still don't see it arborlad. This is the bit I'm reading:

The neighbours are essentially land locked. They did have an easement which provided them with access to the main road through my next door neighbours passageway, but this was given up in 2013 when they purchased a small plot of land from my next door neighbours at the time.


Can OP please clarify or expand on this please? Where on the map is the small plot of land? Who bought it form who?

Have you spoken with the other party in that deal to see if anything was mentioned, if only in passing even, about 14s access?
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Re: With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Postby arborlad » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:05 pm

span wrote:
arborlad wrote:
span wrote:Something funny going on here.

Why would they effectively landlock themselves by surrendering their access via No 5? Who would do that?

Unless they were certain they had a cast iron alternative access via your property? It makes no sense otherwise.




The way the OP describes it, 14s access to the highway was via an easement over land owned by No 5, that land was subsequently bought by No 14, this is reflected in the plan so not landlocked..........perhaps No 14 also wants rear access as well.


I still don't see it arborlad. This is the bit I'm reading:

The neighbours are essentially land locked. They did have an easement which provided them with access to the main road through my next door neighbours passageway, but this was given up in 2013 when they purchased a small plot of land from my next door neighbours at the time.


Can OP please clarify or expand on this please? Where on the map is the small plot of land? Who bought it form who?

Have you spoken with the other party in that deal to see if anything was mentioned, if only in passing even, about 14s access?





Access to the highway via land that you own has to be preferable to access that requires an easement, I'm assuming that is why the purchase took place.
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Re: With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Postby span » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:55 pm

Ahhhhhh. I see where you coming from now. Is it your understanding that one needs an easement over land that one does not own. By purchasing the small plot of land, they now own the access and the easement is extinguished?

I don't read it like that.

OP, please clarify.
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Re: With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Postby arborlad » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:03 pm

span wrote:Ahhhhhh. I see where you coming from now. Is it your understanding that one needs an easement over land that one does not own. By purchasing the small plot of land, they now own the access and the easement is extinguished?

I don't read it like that.

OP, please clarify.




Yes, that is my understanding...........subject of course to any clarification from the OP :)
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Re: With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Postby MacadamB53 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:30 pm

Hi Duncan1261,

the various historic aerial photos of the properties - dating back to 1999 - clearly show a gap in the hedge and a path across your back garden leading from the gate to the neighbour’s property.

with this in mind, and considering your predecessor’s reluctance to refute the neighbour’s claim, I’d not lock the gate or erect a fence/wall - and I’d encourage the neighbour to submit their claim to HMLR to bring this to a close.

kind regards, Mac
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Re: With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Postby Duncan 1261 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:39 pm

The neighbours at No.14 are still using the passageway to the Main Road via No.5. An easement was given up in 2013 in exchange for acquiring an outside toilet (was a well). This I have confirmed from HMLR.

The properties are very old. The previous owner lived in the cottage for over 50 years. The neighbours for a similar period. The steps down were built from stones that the previous owner had passed on, for what she thought was for a rockery.

I received this feedback from my land litigation solicitor who reviewed the neighbours solicitors correspondence.

"On current evidence they think you would not be able to succeed, but that you are missing one vital piece of evidence that could change everything: what your predecessor in title has to say. If you go your seller and they are willing to sign a statement saying that your neighbours have never actually used the land as they say they have, that would put a very different spin on things".

If they do make an application to HMLR for an easement by prescription, they will have to provide a statement of truth, which will be illustrated in Notice B13 from HMLR. I can only object if I can provide a statement of truth which must be grounded, and not groundless.

Also, my gate does not open to the public road, but to a private one. The road down the side of my property is private, and has appropriate signage to indicate as such.
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Re: With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Postby span » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:16 pm

Duncan 1261 wrote:The neighbours at No.14 are still using the passageway to the Main Road via No.5. An easement was given up in 2013 in exchange for acquiring an outside toilet (was a well). This I have confirmed from HMLR.


Please be precise (and really,I'm awfully sorry to be as picky as Mac... :P ) - was their easement over the passageway? Did 5 sell them an outside toilet in exchange for them surrendering their easement over the passageway? Yet they continue to use the passageway?

Please explain. This is not at all clear to me.

Have you spoken to no 5, what do they say? Have they said why they still permit them to use the passageway?
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Re: With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Postby jdfi » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:16 am

Private messages aren't currently working, but are you aware that number 14 appears to have two titles?

Want me to put the details on here?
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Re: With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Postby Duncan 1261 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:51 am

The neighbours at No.14 have actually three deeds that make up their land in title.

DY480120, DY476825 and DY497478.

None of the deeds have any reference to a conveyance of the land.

My next door neighbours at No.5 are now checking with their solicitors on their position. The feedback so far having pulled all the historic titles is that there is no right of way for No.14 to the main road via No.5, and they are They have advised the neighbours and their immediate family that they in fact trespassing in using the passage way, and are in the process of having a gate put across the passageway on their boundary.

In acknowledging this, the neighbours at No.14 are landlocked, and the siblings are putting the pressure on via their solicitor, to acquire a easement. In making this, they are in fact acknowledging that they don't have an easement.

The other point to consider is that they would also have to acquire an easement for the private road at the side of my property, so having a right of way to cross the garden at no 6 and to cross the private road, to get to the main road.
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Re: With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Postby MacadamB53 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:40 pm

Hi Duncan1261,

it may well be just how I’m reading it, but the tone of your postings has begun to change and I am now of the opinion you are looking for advice on how to make your neighbour’s property landlocked.

it isn’t - it has a RoW along the passageway on No 5 - not all easements are expressly granted (written down).

the idea that the law would allow for No 5 to build a house in its back garden and then sell this off landlocked is wrong.

furthermore, it would appear that your neighbour’s property may have RoW over your back garden and the “private road”.

kind regards, Mac
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Re: With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Postby jdfi » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:36 pm

Duncan 1261 wrote:The neighbours at No.14 have actually three deeds that make up their land in title.

DY480120, DY476825 and DY497478.


Ah yes. Image

Question. First of all, this plan is distorted by the existence of the mines & minerals title. The property to the east of number 14 (number 4 is it?) is unregistered, as is a piece of land between number 6 and The Gables. Is this way of any relevance to number 14 (or indeed, to yourself)?

If number 4 is a friend of yours, it may be worth suggesting that he voluntarily registers his land. I for one wouldn't feel comfortable having such a large estate unregistered.
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Re: With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Postby Collaborate » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:35 pm

No 14 will have had an easement by necessity to give them a right of access over the path owned by no 5 (assuming the land belonged to no 5 originally, and it was sold off).

They can still establish a ROW over your garden provided they can prove 20 years usage. Get their solicitor to send you a copy of their sworn statement, speak to your predecessor in title to see if there's the possibility that you could defend such a claim, and act accordingly.
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Re: With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Postby ukmicky » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:04 am

Collaborate wrote:No 14 will have had an easement by necessity to give them a right of access over the path owned by no 5 (assuming the land belonged to no 5 originally, and it was sold off).

They can still establish a ROW over your garden provided they can prove 20 years usage. Get their solicitor to send you a copy of their sworn statement, speak to your predecessor in title to see if there's the possibility that you could defend such a claim, and act accordingly.


I agree that says it all.
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Re: With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Postby arborlad » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:07 am

span wrote:Ahhhhhh. I see where you coming from now. Is it your understanding that one needs an easement over land that one does not own. By purchasing the small plot of land, they now own the access and the easement is extinguished?

I don't read it like that.

OP, please clarify.




I'm now less certain of this, if the land purchased didn't include the land required for access...........
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Re: With no right of way on title deed, can I lock my gate ?

Postby span » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:02 pm

arborlad wrote:
span wrote:Ahhhhhh. I see where you coming from now. Is it your understanding that one needs an easement over land that one does not own. By purchasing the small plot of land, they now own the access and the easement is extinguished?

I don't read it like that.

OP, please clarify.




I'm now less certain of this, if the land purchased didn't include the land required for access...........


Pity the OP has done a bunk. We will probably never know now the details.
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