Our track

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petsco
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Our track

Post by petsco » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:33 pm

Hi

we've a track, that allows 5 cottages to use it to get to their garages.

Four are fine. One runs a sports therapist business out of a shed in his garden, and his clients go up the track all the time. Normally not an issue, but some go up quite fast.

Our deeds say

TO HOLD the same unto Purchaser in fee simple Subject to any rights of way or other easements or quasi-easements affecting the strip of land on the North eastern or Eastern boundary of land thereby conveyed then used as access to the rear of the adjoining properties

and one of the cottages's deeds says

Notice entered in pursuance of rule 254 of the Land Registration Rules,1925 on 27 March 1984 that the registered proprietor claims that the land in this title has the benefit of a right of way over the land tinted brown on the filed plan

So no sign of type of transport, width, height etc etc. That's literally all both sides say in relation to the track.

Presumably anything is fair game then? I'd like to have a quiet word (we do get on; kids same age et al), but it would be good to have some legal backing on it.

Course, his deeds also say That no trade or business should be carried on upon the said property or in or upon any messuage dwelling house or buildings erected thereon. but i don't want to kill his livelihood!

ta

pete

arborlad
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Re: Our track

Post by arborlad » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:52 pm

arborlad

smile...it confuses people

petsco
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Re: Our track

Post by petsco » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:10 pm

yeah - fraid so. Me again.

but the situation is getting more concerning, to the extent I've got the deeds of their house. So it's all changed slightly

jdfi
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Re: Our track

Post by jdfi » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:32 am

Would you have an issue if the guy running a business from home had a constant stream of social visitors round for dinner/etc?

jonahinoz
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Re: Our track

Post by jonahinoz » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:23 pm

One runs a sports therapist business out of a shed in his garden,

Hi,

Is that the sort of business that you can run out of a shed? Or do you need qualifications and insurance certificates nailed to the wall, have regular inspections from the LA, and pay business rates, income tax, etc.

John W

mr sheen
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Re: Our track

Post by mr sheen » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:49 pm

[quote="petsco"]

we've a track, that allows 5 cottages to use it to get to their garages.

the track doesn't 'allow' 5 cottages to get to their garages if they have a right of way......if they have a right of way, they have a legal interest in the land that gives them the right to pass and repass 24/7 with whatever vehicles they wish to get back and for to the property benefiting from the right of way

Our deeds say

TO HOLD the same unto Purchaser in fee simple Subject to any rights of way or other easements or quasi-easements affecting the strip of land on the North eastern or Eastern boundary of land thereby conveyed then used as access to the rear of the adjoining properties

and one of the cottages's deeds says

Notice entered in pursuance of rule 254 of the Land Registration Rules,1925 on 27 March 1984 that the registered proprietor claims that the land in this title has the benefit of a right of way over the land tinted brown on the filed plan

So no sign of type of transport, width, height etc etc. That's literally all both sides say in relation to the track.

the deed is silent on the details but is clear that a right of way exists so seeking to 'police' the use of the roadway by dominant users will prove pretty fruitless and buckets full of aggravation

Presumably anything is fair game then? I'd like to have a quiet word (we do get on; kids same age et al), but it would be good to have some legal backing on it.

quiet word about what? You don't dispute the unrestricted right of way to and from the garage, so any quiet word will not be legally based it will be neighbours having a chat where you are asking and he is likely to tell where to get off

Course, his deeds also say That no trade or business should be carried on upon the said property or in or upon any messuage dwelling house or buildings erected thereon. but i don't want to kill his livelihood!

You would have to initiate legal proceedings to seek to enforce this covenant. The costs will be high and even if you win, your damages will be negligible since it is unlikely that the massage treatment is adversely affecting your property which is what these covenants sought to protect from setting up businesses such as car sales garages etc

For your own piece of mind you need to accept that the roadway is subject to the RIGHTS of others and then leave them to enjoy their rights in peace unless something serious starts up

petsco
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Re: Our track

Post by petsco » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:12 am

Oh i've no issue with his massage business (and it literally is a shed, with a massage table in it. Not my idea of fun for £50 an hour, but he is busy. He's also well above board - no issues with that).

It is solely the speed of some of his clients up the track. It's a narrow track, past our back door. There are no lights (it's the country)

One of the consequences of the speed (and the weather at the moment) is it's getting churned up again. It might need more shingle. And despite his clients being 80% of the traffic up the track, he's under no obligation as far as i can tell to help maintain it.

However, if that's the way it is, I shall live with it. And possibly have a nice polite neighbourly chat about his clients' behaviour.

MacadamB53
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Re: Our track

Post by MacadamB53 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:02 am

Hi petsco,

he might be willing to contribute if he understood business might dry up if the track became a problem...

kind regards, Mac

pilman
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Re: Our track

Post by pilman » Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:36 pm

TO HOLD the same unto Purchaser in fee simple Subject to any rights of way or other easements or quasi-easements affecting the strip of land on the North eastern or Eastern boundary of land thereby conveyed then used as access to the rear of the adjoining properties
That implies that the part of the track directly behind your garden is part of your property even though it has a right of way over it.
You can verify that by looking at the title plan.

Should that land be in your ownership, you would be entitled to impose speed limits over it by creating a speed bump if you think that will prevent excessive speeding on the track. There would be costs involved, which will need to be considered if you are the land-owner of part of the track, because the common law makes it clear that no one can be compelled to maintain a private right of way that runs over land they own.

Anyone who has use of a private right of way can chose to maintain it, but it would always be at their own cost.

petsco
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Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:39 am

Re: Our track

Post by petsco » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:43 pm

hi

this has developed a bit more now

just come back from holiday to find out he's replacing the shed with a much bigger (5m x3m) shack (obviously using my track for access).

we're in an AONB, so he's needs planning for size alone, he's running a business where his deeds say he shouldn't, and obviously the shed will be in commercial use. There is no planning application.

I don't mind the odd person, but if he's expanding i don't want a lot of people using my drive on a continual basis. Reading all this, he could be in trouble

I don't want to ruin his business but I also want to protect what's mine. It wouldn't be so bad if his clients didn't insist on driving up the drive.

I will have a word (he's obviously on holiday himself at the moment), but is there anything i should/could do?

IdefixUK
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Re: Our track

Post by IdefixUK » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:28 pm

Hello petsco.
petsco wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:43 pm
but is there anything i should/could do?
On reading both of your threads it seems clear to me that what you should do is make up your mind.

It has been explained to you in responses to your thread that you are not in any position to either stop or in any way control the traffic created by your neighbour's business. Using the covenant preventing business use of his premises would an expensive and uncertain route.

Your only hope is to contact the planning department with your concerns about the size of the new shed and, more particularly, it's use as a business. But that's not the best way to make friends and influence people! If you take this route (or put it on the back burner for a while) then you should be aware that if he either, gets away with the new enlarged shed, and continues to work from it, then given a few years the planners will not be able to enforce him to stop.

One problem you have is that if you were to approach the neighbour with your worries and concerns, trying to get him to limit the number or timing of his business "traffic" under the mild threat that you will inform the planners of what's occurring if he doesn't comply with your wishes. Then if the planners do 'drop' on him later, for what ever reason, (and they probably will) you'll be the first suspect in his mind.

You say you don't want to interfere with his business, but that leaves you stuck between a stone and a hard place.

To my mind the fact that the new shed is bigger than the last doesn't necessarily mean that he will be accommodating more clients per hour, I suspect that he wants space for a changing area, a desk, and perhaps more equipment. It seems unlikely to me that he could effectively massage two people at the same time. (memories of a particular scene in the 'League of Gentlemen') 8)

Regards

petsco
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Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:39 am

Re: Our track

Post by petsco » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:41 pm

sorry - don't seem to have been alerted to your reply

I know - I need to work out what to do. Problem is I like him; we get on. The kids are the same age etc.

I'll leave it for the time being - have a quiet word maybe about potential concerns, but I really don't want to get all heavy handed on him

ignore me; just being typically indecisive, and wanted to see I was being walked over.

mr sheen
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Re: Our track

Post by mr sheen » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:15 am

Appears to me that having a quiet chat about your concerns is all you can do and even this needs to be done warily since you do you risk adverse response. If you get a mouthful, you can't really take the ROw issue much further. You have no right to get 'heavy handed' about his use of the ROW.

You can if you wish to engage the LPA, who may or may not be interested, he will probably be very annoyed and seek some type of 'payback'. Initiate authorities on people only if you are squeaky clean since he will probably bite back.
When people are reported to the authorities, or people complain about what they are doing, they very rarely consider the 'reporter' as a good mate just doing their duty.

jonahinoz
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Re: Our track

Post by jonahinoz » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:17 am

Hi,

Your neighbour is probably aware that he is vunerable to LA interest, and is relying on your goodwill. Perhaps just the request that he asks his clients to drive a bit slower, with no implied threats, would do the trick?

A "speed ditch" might be cheaper than a "speed bump".

Would an unlocked gate be an infringement on your neighbours RoW?

Is the RoW specificically to access your neighbour's garage, or (non-specically) the whole of his property?

John W

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