Resurrection of right of way.

Color
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Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:55 am

Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Color » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:42 pm

Good day and thank you in advance for any replies.

I live in an end terraced house one of a row of 4 all ex local authority (L.A.) and built (1926) in a large square block of land and at right angles to the street. All the rest of the houses along the street follow the orientation of the street. Hence they sit almost as it were as an isolated block.

I shall add plans when I am allowed to after 3 posts.

The front gardens are very large and the back gardens small. There are access ways front and rear. The rear one 5 to 6 feet wide is right next to the rear fence of the next building, 1906 (always private owned), then the small rear gardens and finally the back of the houses.

The front access is right in front of the house, in between the front door and the large front garden. Post,visitors and residents come and go down here.

The land slopes downwards from backs to fronts. Zero at the back to 6 foot drop at the furthest part of the front garden. The street is level = zero
Away from the road the drop going from 1, by the road to 4, the furthest away is about a foot.

Number 1 (next to street) sold L.A. to owner in 1963 and first registered on next sale 1977 to present owners.
Number 2 bought by L.A tenant (since 1926) in 1990 and first registered also. Sold on death to "buy to let" 2011.
Number 3 bought by L.A. tenants (1926 too) in 1983 and first registered also.
Number4 bought from L.A. in 1969 and registered then too. Resold 3 times, 1976, 1981, and 1985 to the present owners.

Color
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Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:55 am

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Color » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:17 pm

So, the rights of way.
Number 1 has a windowless side set back about 20 feet and facing the busy street. The full length of garden and house fronts the street, level by the house andropping below the surface level as you go down the front garden.

There is rear access to 2,3&4 by the neighbouring fence then a concrete garage for number1. I was told that number 3 (their son) took a mini down the rear alley to his rear garden. Old Nobby from 1 went ballistic and built the concrete garage as near as possible to the alley planted hedges etc. Old Nobby was related to number 3 somehow, so that was an end to that...... ? Mid 1960's

The real question is the front acess. It runs across the front of the houses with a 3 foot gate by the street and a step down. Number 2 is probably the most original and has 8foot 6inch wide slabbing. Number 3 a central 2foot 6inch slab line and number 1 a mix with a porch about 3 foot x 6 foot.

Number 4 has a deed showing that the front access may in 1969 been shown as vehicular.

IdefixUK
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Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by IdefixUK » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:38 pm

Keep posting and then we will get to see your diagram/photos. And your question?

Regards

Color
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Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:55 am

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Color » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:59 pm

I am awaiting the copies of filed documents from the Land registry and only have the Register deeds and plans so far. Hopefully I can post plans in the next post.

Numbers 2&3 are easy to copy as they are so similar in wording and plan, namely;

A: Property Register
This register describes the land and estate comprised in the title
Place xxxxxx.
1 (DATE XXXX) the Freehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the above title filed at the Registry and being xxxx Street xxx xxxx.

2 the Transfer dated x x x x x x referred to in the Charges Register was made pursuant to Chapter 1 of Part 1 of the Housing Act 1980 and the land has the benefit of and is subject to such easements as are granted and reserved in the said Deed and the easements and rights specified in paragraph 2 of schedule 2 of the said Act.

Also

C: Charges Register
This register contains any charges and other matters that affect the land.

1 A transfer of the land in this title dated x x x x made between 1 the borough council and to the purchaser xx and contains restrictive covenants.

Note: Original filed.

I've sent for copies these transfers on form OC2.

Of note is the title plans of the 2 middle houses are not showing a single block of land which covers the gardens, house and accesses but two separate blocks that exclude the accesses. So don't they own the access??

Plans next

Color
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Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:55 am

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Color » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:04 pm

Title plans 2 & 3 and of the block
2018-11-10 12.00.15.jpg[attachment=1]2018-11-10 12.00.15.jpg
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Color
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Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Color » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:36 pm

I'm very sorry about the length of this post it seems crushingly boring but I suppose legal stuff is although interesting as well perhaps I should have joined the legal position as my punctuation grammar and syntax is so poor or so I've been told.

Number 4 is th next easiest.

A: Property Register

This register describes the land and estate comprised in the title .
County:place

1 (x .x .1969)the freehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the above Title filed at the Registry and being number xx Street x x x x town

2 x x x x x irrelevant (minerals)

3 the land has the benefit of the rights granted by but is subject to the rights reserved by the transfer dated 1969 referred to in the Charges Register.

C: Charges Register
This register contains any charges and other matters that affect the land.

1 A transfer of the land in this title dated 1969 made between (1) The Council and (2) XXX Mr xxx contains restrictive covenants.

NOTE:original filed.
2018-11-10 12.40.36.jpg
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Clifford Pope
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Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Clifford Pope » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:08 pm

Is there a question buried somewhere?

Something with a question mark would be a clue :)

Color
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Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Color » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:26 pm

Lol. I'm losing the will to live with these legal documents.
You'll see what I mean when I write the registry tile for number one. :roll:

The question will be
Number 4 wants vehicular access over the front of all the houses which seems to appear in transfer of 1969 even though it's no been used as such for decades ( or ? ever)but is on the deeds.Is this possibe?

I'm going out in a bit. Perhaps I'll get drunk and chuck a brick through the window. :shock: This is a very basic area
Seem what most folk do

Color
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Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:55 am

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Color » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:31 pm

:oops: sorry again fo the post length.

Number one through which all pass:(

This entry is not listed anywhere in the title deeds as "original filed"so is particularly long and verbose presumably because the origional no longer exists (?)

A : property register

This register describe the Land and estate comprised in the title

County xx place

1 1977 the freehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the above title filed at the registry and being Street place xx postcode

2 The land has the benefit of the rights granted by but is subject as mentioned in the conveyance dated 1963 referred to in the charges register in the following terms :-"TOGETHER ALSO with the benefit of but subject to all rights of way drainage sewerage gas electric and water services spouts support party walls fences and other easements (if any) as are now used enjoyed or intended to be used and enjoyed or which but for the fact that the property hereby conveyed and the owner and occupier of the adjoining property the Purchaser and the persons deriving title under her paying out proportionate part of the cost of keeping the same in good repair and condition and according to the council and their duly authorised officers servants and agents or the owner for the time being of the adjoining property his agents and servants facilities at all reasonable times and from time to time to carry out works of repair or replacement and together also with the right for the purchaser and her successors in title the owner or owners for the time being and the occupiers of the property hereby conveyed in common with all others etc... drains sewers etc..
3 the conveyance dated 1963 referred to above contains the following provisional

It is hereby agreed and declared by a between the council and the purchaser as follows
1 that the purchaser and the persons deriving title under her shall not be or become entitled to any right of access of light or air to the property hereby conveyed which would restrict or interfere with the free use by the council or their successors in title for building or the purposes of any adjoining or neighbouring land

2 that any fence or Wall erected and no standing on either side or at the back of the property hereby conveyed being a fence or wall provided by the council as a dividing fence or wall either at the time the house is built or subsequently shall be deemed to be a party fence or wall and repairable and maintainable at the joint expense of the purchaser or her successors in title and the owner for the time being of the adjoining property

C: Charges Register
1 a conveyance of the land in this title dated 1963 made between won the district council and to the purchaser contains covenants details of which are set out in the schedule of restrictive covenants hereto


.

ukmicky
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Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by ukmicky » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:41 pm

Color wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:26 pm
Lol. I'm losing the will to live with these legal documents.
You'll see what I mean when I write the registry tile for number one. :roll:

The question will be
Number 4 wants vehicular access over the front of all the houses which seems to appear in transfer of 1969 even though it's no been used as such for decades ( or ? ever)but is on the deeds.Is this possibe?

I'm going out in a bit. Perhaps I'll get drunk and chuck a brick through the window. :shock: This is a very basic area
Seem what most folk do
Sorry to much info and to short a time to read through it all and digest.


However you said
Number 4 wants vehicular access over the front of all the houses which seems to appear in transfer of 1969 even though it's no been used as such for decades ( or ? ever)but is on the deeds.Is this possibe?
If it’s on the deeds then he has a right to it. Non use will not end the right.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

IdefixUK
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Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by IdefixUK » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:14 pm

Color wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:17 pm

Number 4 has a deed showing that the front access may in 1969 been shown as vehicular.
Can you give details of this please

Regards

MacadamB53
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Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by MacadamB53 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:38 pm

ukmicky wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:41 pm
Color wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:26 pm
Lol. I'm losing the will to live with these legal documents.
You'll see what I mean when I write the registry tile for number one. :roll:

The question will be
Number 4 wants vehicular access over the front of all the houses which seems to appear in transfer of 1969 even though it's no been used as such for decades ( or ? ever)but is on the deeds.Is this possibe?

I'm going out in a bit. Perhaps I'll get drunk and chuck a brick through the window. :shock: This is a very basic area
Seem what most folk do
Sorry to much info and to short a time to read through it all and digest.


However you said
Number 4 wants vehicular access over the front of all the houses which seems to appear in transfer of 1969 even though it's no been used as such for decades ( or ? ever)but is on the deeds.Is this possibe?
If it’s on the deeds then he has a right to it. Non use will not end the right.
+1

IdefixUK
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Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:07 pm
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Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by IdefixUK » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:10 am

Whist I agree with ukmicky and MacadamB53, I would like to ask some further questions since we have not yet seen any detail of a vehicular ROW at this stage.
Have the houses 1,2 &3 been extended or had additions added since the first deed creating the ROW was written to benefit No.4.
Are there any original boundary features, such as concrete posts and wires,or very old fences , separating what appears to be the path from the gardens of 1,2 & 3, or is it possible that the gardens have encroached (over time) across some of the width of the path?

Color
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:55 am

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Color » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:47 am

Thank you for the replies.
I went out to a family meal with the phone on this page thinking when a reply came it would add it on the end.

When nothing came I thought I'd upset folk somehow.
So now I feel guilty not to hsve seen the replies.
Ho hum.
Onwards and upwards.
Thank you MacadamB53 and ukmicky.

And idefixUk too. House 2 has the front door and slabs out to 8'6" with no fence and the rest of the garden as you look down.
The fences between the front gardens of the 4,3,2&1 houses start at about the width of the "R.O.W" and the n rundown the full length of the long gardens.
Number 3 has ferns intead of the 2foot slabs next to the house then the 2'6"slab path then the garden so the 4foot of slabs is missing that would make up the full width.

At No. 1 there's the porch 3' x 6' then slabs from the house to the 4'6" mark and then a hedge 4' tall out to the width of the "ROW"that seperates the front garden from the path.

The features at number one seem to be from a time prior to 1977 as the concrete is very similar in composition to that which has been dropped down for the garage base and then the hedge that was planted next to it. Similar concrete also goes from the front path under the hedge that then separates the front garden from the pathway

It is very hard to tell anything that may be from the original houses because of replacements over the many decades. For instance I do not know how high the road or Street would have been in the 1920s
There is a step down from the front gate onto the path but this may not have been necessary when they houses were originally built.

Kind regards Color

Color
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Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:55 am

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Color » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:58 am

2018-11-11 00.53.03.jpg
This is the trnsfer plan for number 4 fom 1969.
No.4 is anonomised and the numbers on the houses are now different.. I'll Ill try the wording next. ......
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