Resurrection of right of way.

Color
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:55 am

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Color » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:27 pm

Thanks IdefixUK. Lol. Outline planning is perhaps a bit too far for me. It's a thought.

I'm waiting for the deeds metioned for 2 & 3 from the land registry. Should be by next week. (5 working days)

I remember there were arial photos at the local library but not any more, they'll be in the main archives. The reason why they may have photos is they wil be peripheral to local industrial historical features nearby.

The step along the front access makes motorcycle thoroughfare impractical.

Isn't one problem with having a secondary ROW that it prevents the argument the need for another ROW? i.e. if the front is considered only as wide as the back.

Regards Color

mugwump
Posts: 528
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:34 pm

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by mugwump » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:36 am

My thoughts. Even if you have a ROW across the front of the houses, it is a ROW to nowhere. From what has been posted, you do not have egress to the public road as there is no dropped kerb on the pavement.

Would the council approve a dropped kerb? As without it, you, from a legal perspective, have no right of access the public highway with a vehicle.

Color
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:55 am

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Color » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:25 pm

Hi mugwump and thanks for your reply,
It is my opinion that a dropped kerb would be allowed. It is not in a particularly dangerous place and the road has access points all the way along on both sides.

Presently there is only one car parked outside a row of 4 houses. I should imagine that it is preferable to have cars offroad than up to 8 cars parked outside when new families fill these houses.

Also I cannot imagine that they will refuse development of front gardens 1&2 which will also use the frontage for parking .
I believe they are under an obligation to increase the housing stock and no longer are so stringent with their requirements.

As I wonder around walking the dogs looking, at times, at all the accesses over none dropped kerbs , onto new driveways without drainage, land grabs, incursions onto council land it reminds me of how hard pressed councils are or how little they care about such things.

I don't see that they ultimate decider will be whether there is a dropped kerb there or not present.

Thanks for your reply again, Color

cabbagewhite
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:40 pm

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by cabbagewhite » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:30 am

Color, you seem very determined to reinstate this ROW whatever comments anyone makes on here so I don't really see what you are waiting for.

The situation is that you have a vehicular ROW on your deeds which we can all see and agree is the case.
We can now see from your phots that the back alley vehicular ROW is not ever going to work well.

You can take your ROW plans to 3 separate landlords/owners and try to negotiate an alternative. This is never going to work because none of them are going to want you driving across their land and will attempt to obstruct you either verbally, legally or physically. Their properties will be devalued. Even if they do capitulate what are the chances of an alternative agreed - what are the chances of even getting all 4 of you to meet?!
This method might work if you had a very stable population but you do not so I wouldn't even start with this, it will only draw attention to the situation and allow them to prepare to obstruct.

In my opinion, you either leave things as they are and save yourself a load of stress or take physical and rapid action and reinstate the right of way. Once its there, they have to then argue that it has to be removed, giving you the stronger position. You're are in the best situation you probably will ever be at present since there is a sale pending on number 1 so he will not want to be in dispute and he doesnt live there anyway so he wouldn't immediately see the work. Another of the properties is tenanted so by the time the landlord finds out the work could be done and the other property - there seems to be less obstruction to move and you might just have to contend with him.

The porch is the main problem as number 1 could argue that you should have stopped this obstruction when it was under construction however i think this is much more likely to happen when new owners buy number 1. Also as i said, the son who owns number 1 probably doesnt want a dispute. Also if developers get involved with 1/2 gardens you might find yourself up against more difficult opposition.

So if you want to do this, then go ahead and do it but trying to get the route chaged, i feel is dead in the water.

Collaborate
Posts: 1833
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Collaborate » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:12 am

cabbagewhite wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:30 am
Color, you seem very determined to reinstate this ROW whatever comments anyone makes on here so I don't really see what you are waiting for.

The situation is that you have a vehicular ROW on your deeds which we can all see and agree is the case.
We can now see from your phots that the back alley vehicular ROW is not ever going to work well.

You can take your ROW plans to 3 separate landlords/owners and try to negotiate an alternative. This is never going to work because none of them are going to want you driving across their land and will attempt to obstruct you either verbally, legally or physically. Their properties will be devalued. Even if they do capitulate what are the chances of an alternative agreed - what are the chances of even getting all 4 of you to meet?!
This method might work if you had a very stable population but you do not so I wouldn't even start with this, it will only draw attention to the situation and allow them to prepare to obstruct.

In my opinion, you either leave things as they are and save yourself a load of stress or take physical and rapid action and reinstate the right of way. Once its there, they have to then argue that it has to be removed, giving you the stronger position. You're are in the best situation you probably will ever be at present since there is a sale pending on number 1 so he will not want to be in dispute and he doesnt live there anyway so he wouldn't immediately see the work. Another of the properties is tenanted so by the time the landlord finds out the work could be done and the other property - there seems to be less obstruction to move and you might just have to contend with him.

The porch is the main problem as number 1 could argue that you should have stopped this obstruction when it was under construction however i think this is much more likely to happen when new owners buy number 1. Also as i said, the son who owns number 1 probably doesnt want a dispute. Also if developers get involved with 1/2 gardens you might find yourself up against more difficult opposition.

So if you want to do this, then go ahead and do it but trying to get the route chaged, i feel is dead in the water.
Can I just clarify what you're suggesting? Are you saying OP can just make a new driveway wherever they want, and demolish the porch, before anyone has a chance to object? And that this is a reasonable course of action to take without civil or criminal repercussions?

cabbagewhite
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:40 pm

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by cabbagewhite » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:44 am

No

Collaborate
Posts: 1833
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Collaborate » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:13 pm

cabbagewhite wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:30 am

In my opinion, you either leave things as they are and save yourself a load of stress or take physical and rapid action and reinstate the right of way. Once its there, they have to then argue that it has to be removed, giving you the stronger position. You're are in the best situation you probably will ever be at present since there is a sale pending on number 1 so he will not want to be in dispute and he doesnt live there anyway so he wouldn't immediately see the work. Another of the properties is tenanted so by the time the landlord finds out the work could be done and the other property - there seems to be less obstruction to move and you might just have to contend with him.
Perhaps time to reconsider the point in italics.

A dominant owner of a ROW has no right to improve the surface. That would be actionable, and quite probably criminal damage.

cabbagewhite
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:40 pm

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by cabbagewhite » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:05 pm

Nowhere did I suggest demolishing a porch or improving a surface. In my opinion, if there is a fence obstructing the ROW or a bush, then this could be removed. With regards to the porch, that is is a bigger problem. It may be possible to manoeuvre round that and then join the ROW before passing onto the land belonging to number 2.

Personally I would not do any of the above, neither would I go down the legal route as if I had lived in the house for 30 years I would either have accepted things as they are now on the ground or I would have dealt with this years ago.

However going down the legal route in terms of solicitors letters, court cases etc is going to be extremely stressful, very lengthy and end up costing a fortune.

Likewise, getting these 3 neighbours to agree on altering the ROW will, in my opinion, never happen.

Removing a portion of fencing, putting down a (temporary) ramp and removing the bushes to test the water might be an option. 1 and 2 might not kick up a fuss and 3 - well their area is devoid of obstructions anyway so perhaps it might work out. Number 3 would benefit too in the sense that they could use the Row if reinstated.

Worst case scenario you'd be asked to replace the bushes and fence or one of the neighbours would install further obstructions.

cabbagewhite
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:40 pm

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by cabbagewhite » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:10 pm

Perhaps it's more about trying to predict what the neighbours will actually do rather than what they're legally entitled to do.

Collaborate
Posts: 1833
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Collaborate » Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:52 pm

cabbagewhite wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:10 pm
Perhaps it's more about trying to predict what the neighbours will actually do rather than what they're legally entitled to do.
You mean like call the police and claim criminal damage?

Eliza
Posts: 345
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:28 am

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Eliza » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:24 pm

Collaborate wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:52 pm
cabbagewhite wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:10 pm
Perhaps it's more about trying to predict what the neighbours will actually do rather than what they're legally entitled to do.
You mean like call the police and claim criminal damage?
LOL - and, by now, it does rather look like it would serve OP right if they did so too.

He seems to be determined to "barge his way" into trying to get what he wants absolutely regardless of anyone/anything else.
Apologies for not giving exact personal details in my posts - you never know who is reading....

cabbagewhite
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:40 pm

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by cabbagewhite » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:28 pm

There is a vehicular right of way. The neighbours have obstructed the right of way. Two of them do not even live in the street. If they found out that the trees and fence had been moved they could call the police and say that the obstruction which should not have been there in the first place had been removed.

Unlikely that the police would be at all bothered especially if the deeds stated that there was a vehicular right of way. They would certainly chalk it down to a civil matter. In an absolute worst case scenario, if the neighbours did proceed as a civil case, the OP could reinstate the fence and shrubbery.

The reason I would not personally take this course of action would be more to do with soured relations between neighbours rather than fear of the police knocking on the door.

Other options to reinstate the ROW could end up costing lots more than a fence panel and a bush.

cabbagewhite
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:40 pm

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by cabbagewhite » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:37 pm

Eliza, I agee with you. I do happen to think that having lived without the use of the ROW for so long has given the neighbours the impression that he doesn't need or want it.

I also think that falling out with the neighbours or protracted legal battles can end up being so detrimental to all parties and they mostly aren't worth it. Especially if they end up being so stressful they affect the health of th OP which is worth more than the value of any ROW.

Color
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:55 am

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Color » Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:54 pm

Many thanks cabbagewhite, collaborate and Eliza, the discussion was excellent and made me chuckle.

Obviously it is serious business and you've discussed the pros and cons with great lucidity. I agree with most of the points even if they are opposing each other. Sometimes soon I will have to make difficult decisions and way up the pros and cons. It will not be easy.

Many parts have hit the nail on the head.

I am determined but not set. Now if any is the time. The neighbours have always known my wish for vehicular access and have ignored me.

Their opinion or opposition is irrelevant. It has been a mistake to value pleasant neighborly relations that did not exist over pursuing right of way that did.
I have, as many times before, sub-optimal solicitors advice to thank for that.

I have spoken more to the tenants of number two in the past six months and a man of the MOT station today than three decades with the present surviving owners.

I won't be knocking down the porch.
I won't bother spending fortunes.

It seems that phrase
"l the law is not for the indolent "should have the addition of "or the poor".
cabbagewhite wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:10 pm
Perhaps it's more about trying to predict what the neighbours will actually do rather than what they're legally entitled to do.
So true and so hard to predict.
Thanks again
Truly useful.
I won't be about for a couple of days.

Regards Color

Color
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:55 am

Re: Resurrection of right of way.

Post by Color » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:47 pm

Thank you for your patience.

People's minds are focused and do no think I'm "not bothered". Discussions are taking place.

I will evetually try to inform people of the outcome.
And yes it is super stressful. :(

Post Reply