Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

crazydrum95
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Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:24 am

Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

Post by crazydrum95 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:13 pm

Hi all,

I was advised to post on here after posting on the legaladviceUK subreddit, which is normally really good, so if they're saying you're good, i have high hopes! I feel that i worded it quite well over there so will basically copy and paste, with a few minor updates and changes to make things clearer. Hope you can help


So first off, i moved into the house i bought about a year and a half ago with my ex fiance and all was well. The property is a terraced house with huuuuuuge rear garden, parking in front of the house and the right to park on a section of land between our terrace of 4 and the next.

Here is where i'm going to draw a diagram with colours because it gets bloody complicated! It is not accurate or to scale but just helps with areas. https://imgur.com/a/uJdtRfi

To make sure i am Legally and technically correct i spent the money and bought sets of deads for 4 of my neighbours. I can quote this exactly if anyone wants them, which i suspect you will.

For the first year i lived here myself (B) and neighbours C & D each parked one 1 vehicle each on the "shared" area on the side highlighted RED.

The BLUE area belongs to house D and is drive space and a double garage.

The GREEN area is left clear as driveway access to BLUE.

In September last year my ex moved out and I would switch between parking on my drive and on the "shared" area depending on visitors, when i was going out again etc.

At this point, neighbour A, who has parking down the side of his house and can fit around 6 cars on his drive, decides to park one of his unused vehicles on the "shared" area where i normally park. I had a word with him and he insisted that he needed it and, not only did he have a right to park there, but that the space nearest the road was specifically his. i should point out there are no marked spaces however for the past year it has always just been B, C, D in that order.



To cut a long story short, he wasn't very neighbourly and we had a few arguments about the issue, more so that i thought he was just being awkward and i only asked to use the space when i had visitors. He has finally agreed to that but doesn't always stick to his end of the bargain and leaves his car their even when i've asked him to move.

To settle it, i bought the deeds and covenants to our row of houses, plus the first house of the next terrace. Here's where the plan really comes in.

YELLOW is a footpath which every house in the terraces (30 or so) can use on foot.

Houses A, B, C, D & E can drive over GREEN

Houses A, B, C, D, & E can drive over RED

House D owns GREEN and BLUE but can only park on BLUE

House E owns RED but cannot park on either GREEN or RED

Houses A, B & C can park on GREEN OR RED, as long as there is 1 clear path from front to back.

D & E do not have a right to park on either GREEN or RED



D moved in 5 years ago. He has been parking one vehicle at the back (nearest Yellow) part of RED and one at the back of GREEN. When i've spoken to him in the past he has said "well I have the back space since i block myself in" by which he means he is basically "reserving" a space by parking on the GREEN section which he should not park on at any time.


With my recent discovery, I have approached all my neighbours and explained things. I have been as friendly and amicable as possible. A still refuses to accept that he does not have an "allocated" spot even when i showed him his deeds. He also got very upset that i had his deeds, claiming i must be doing something illegal even when i explained you can just buy them online.

C who i get along with very well were understandably not too interested. We both agreed that since they haven't caused any of this they shouldn't have to be part of it but i did point out that since no-one has an "allocated" space, we all need to work together. They however are close with D and will not want to fall out with them.

D refuses all of the above. He refused to move his car from RED when i asked him to so i showed him the evidence i had found and he said that was wrong. He said his solicitor had told them they could park there when they bought the property. I obviously said this was incorrect and explained that i would only ask him to move when i had visitors etc (trying to stay friendly)

I did just this, and had visitors wednesday through sunday last week. Begrudgingly he moved his car and didn't block me in all weekend. However, when i parked there last night, he blocked me in and refused to move to let me out, which was what really made me angry. Blocking me in and parking where you shouldn't are one thing, but refusing to let me get my car out and therefore making me late to work, are another.

I also pointed out that since i have someone moving in with me shortly, he won't be able to park on GREEN anymore and he said that he owns it so of course he can. Again i tried to calmly explain that by giving us the right, he gave up his right and his deeds quite clearly state there has to be a clear path from front to back and that includes him.


He is refusing to move cars and refusing to accept what i'm showing him, but he does accept that they are his deeds. i have said that i am a friendly person and would like to remain friends and act neighbourly however i am just fighting for the rights i paid for when i bought the house. I asked him to check with his solicitor if he wasn't sure and have them explain it to them.

​I am going to try park anywhere on the space to try and make A and C help me. if they cannot park there because D is taking a spot then they are likely to help me and 'join my side'. I really wanted to avoid this turning into a big thing, and was willing to let D park there whenever i didn't need it, however they don't appear to want to play fair so therefore, i will be taking this seriously from now on. Unfortunately A is adamant he has a specified 'spot' (I know he doesn't because i have his deeds)

I have talked to my solicitor who has suggested that if me talking to them hasn't worked then perhaps a mediator would be a good option.

What can i legally do about making him move? Obviously i would like to stay friends (or close to) everyone as much as possible. A isn't helpful as they have decided they will only park in the end space, C is very anti-confrontation and D is refusing to accept and has 3 cars so can always block off his space as they only drive 2 at any time. I would guess my next move is a letter to him stating my position and that he is currently breaking my rights however can i actually threaten him with anything (court etc)? Is there anything i can do to avoid this, aside from hoping he comes to his senses.

Thanks

mr sheen
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Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:33 pm

Re: Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

Post by mr sheen » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:26 pm

Sorry not had chance to study the colour coded plans as yet so will look at it in more detail tomorrow....however, my immediate reaction is that the parking of cars and terraced houses are a recipe for neighbour issues since families these days tend to have more cars than houses were prepared for.
The issue with car parking is that cars can be moved and hence proving a 'substantial interference' to a right to pass and repass is difficult in comparison with someone building over a right of way.
Added to this you indicate 'shared' areas and presumably this suggests that no single property has the right to park on said land to the exclusion of all others....hence rights over and above someone else to such land will be difficult to prove.
This is all leading to .....these things are not court cases unless you have money to burn....so going in heavy handed without the clout to carry it through is likely to be counter-productive so your solicitor is right....try to get a negotiated agreement on a hand shake (mediation is also a problem since it requires both parties to enter into it voluntarily and the response from neighbours doing their own thing is often negative).

Will look at the details of ownership you have outlined and pass further comment if appropriate.

IdefixUK
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Re: Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

Post by IdefixUK » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:46 am

crazydrum95 wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:13 pm

To make sure i am Legally and technically correct i spent the money and bought sets of deads for 4 of my neighbours. I can quote this exactly if anyone wants them, which i suspect you will
Yes please!

Can you also confirm the following.
1) Were any of the houses in common ownership at any time,eg Council Housing or Housing Association?
2) is the road to access the properties to the left side of your diagram and the huge gardens to the right, perhaps with some garden area to the right of the yellow land?
3) When were they built ?

In general terms, from what you have already posted, it would seem that you have the equivalent of a jar of sandwich spread to separate, with any of the neighbours being obstinate this could prove to be very, very costly, time consuming and stressful. If there is any way that you can reorganise your parking area to the front, to give you the space you require I would highly recommend that you do just that. If you get into a dispute about rights etc with your neighbours you will find that your houses will be difficult to sell.

Regards

siteone

Re: Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

Post by siteone » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:39 am

mr sheen wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:26 pm
Sorry not had chance to study the colour coded plans as yet so will look at it in more detail tomorrow....however, my immediate reaction is that the parking of cars and terraced houses are a recipe for neighbour issues since families these days tend to have more cars than houses were prepared for.
The issue with car parking is that cars can be moved and hence proving a 'substantial interference' to a right to pass and repass is difficult in comparison with someone building over a right of way.
Added to this you indicate 'shared' areas and presumably this suggests that no single property has the right to park on said land to the exclusion of all others....hence rights over and above someone else to such land will be difficult to prove.
This is all leading to .....these things are not court cases unless you have money to burn....so going in heavy handed without the clout to carry it through is likely to be counter-productive so your solicitor is right....try to get a negotiated agreement on a hand shake (mediation is also a problem since it requires both parties to enter into it voluntarily and the response from neighbours doing their own thing is often negative).

Will look at the details of ownership you have outlined and pass further comment if appropriate.
Wouldn't the losing party pay. So as the op has a right of way,they would win. The other party would pay costs. If the other party fails to behave as a reasonable person and get legal advice, then the judge would award higher costs to them.

Pass and repass means you cant park, thats all. Its legal terms from latin, meaning solicitor gets extra money.

siteone

Re: Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

Post by siteone » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:40 am

Awaiting further details but I would look at the RICS scheme

https://www.rics.org/uk/footer/dispute- ... s-service/

mr sheen
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Re: Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

Post by mr sheen » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:06 am

Costs are only awarded following proving a case and getting a judgement in court. These cases very very rarely go that far since the cost of even getting any where near court massively exceeds the value of the rights involved. All costs along the way are for the complainant to cover with only possibility of recovery if the case goes all the way to court and gets a judgement in their favour and a full award of costs (not guaranteed in land law cases).

This is a complex case...will take nerves of steel and plenty available cash to get this to a court judgement.

...and the neighbour is only parking a car there....he can just move it and stop at any point thus pulling the rug from under the case at any point and following incurring of loads of costs for claimant but zero costs for car parker....very risky case even if one is confident of rights involved which from the OP post look extremely complicated and subject to interpretation (multiple interpretation and hence not just 'pass and repass over land marked from A to B' as suggested by Siteone)

siteone

Re: Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

Post by siteone » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:54 am

Until we see the paperwork I wouldnt say it was that complex for a qualified person to understand.

Whilst clearly the car parker and the household allowing the unreasonable bullying behavior is being anti social.

I would offer using the mediation as this has proven to work previously for people also enables the other neighbour to get the correct legal advice needed.

siteone

Re: Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

Post by siteone » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:55 am

mr sheen wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:06 am
Costs are only awarded following proving a case and getting a judgement in court. These cases very very rarely go that far since the cost of even getting any where near court massively exceeds the value of the rights involved. All costs along the way are for the complainant to cover with only possibility of recovery if the case goes all the way to court and gets a judgement in their favour and a full award of costs (not guaranteed in land law cases).

This is a complex case...will take nerves of steel and plenty available cash to get this to a court judgement.

...and the neighbour is only parking a car there....he can just move it and stop at any point thus pulling the rug from under the case at any point and following incurring of loads of costs for claimant but zero costs for car parker....very risky case even if one is confident of rights involved which from the OP post look extremely complicated and subject to interpretation (multiple interpretation and hence not just 'pass and repass over land marked from A to B' as suggested by Siteone)
Are you certain that you are correct in your assumption that any case involving parking would stop if household stopped parking there?

Is this based on case law?

arborlad
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Re: Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

Post by arborlad » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:05 am

siteone wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:39 am

Wouldn't the losing party pay. So as the op has a right of way,they would win. The other party would pay costs.


Given what we already know, this is far too simplistic and is likely to give the OP a false sense of an outcome in his favour................add in what we don't know!!
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

siteone

Re: Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

Post by siteone » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:30 am

arborlad wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:05 am
siteone wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:39 am

Wouldn't the losing party pay. So as the op has a right of way,they would win. The other party would pay costs.


Given what we already know, this is far too simplistic and is likely to give the OP a false sense of an outcome in his favour................add in what we don't know!!
As I said, I have read all the deeds, which he explained he is providing. My point was in general as all the info hasnt been given.

crazydrum95
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:24 am

Re: Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

Post by crazydrum95 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:50 pm

Hi All,

Thanks for your replies, they have solidified my train of thought that I need to try sort this out amicably before threatening legal action.
What is the best way to upload deeds? Is there a site i can upload documents to and link it here? I will upload them asap as soon as I work out how

Funnily enough, not only do the deeds not state parking but they specifically say (BUT NOT TO PARK) for house D


Also, in reply to the poster about road and gardens. The road is infront of the house, yellow path is the rear and gardens are in line with blue.

MacadamB53
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Re: Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

Post by MacadamB53 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:32 pm

Hi crazydrum95,

Houses A, B & C can park on GREEN OR RED, as long as there is 1 clear path from front to back.

that sounds convoluted - is this just your take on things having viewed the docs? can you post the wording for this?

kind regards, Mac

siteone

Re: Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

Post by siteone » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:02 pm

mr sheen wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:06 am
Costs are only awarded following proving a case and getting a judgement in court. These cases very very rarely go that far since the cost of even getting any where near court massively exceeds the value of the rights involved. All costs along the way are for the complainant to cover with only possibility of recovery if the case goes all the way to court and gets a judgement in their favour and a full award of costs (not guaranteed in land law cases).

This is a complex case...will take nerves of steel and plenty available cash to get this to a court judgement.

...and the neighbour is only parking a car there....he can just move it and stop at any point thus pulling the rug from under the case at any point and following incurring of loads of costs for claimant but zero costs for car parker....very risky case even if one is confident of rights involved which from the OP post look extremely complicated and subject to interpretation (multiple interpretation and hence not just 'pass and repass over land marked from A to B' as suggested by Siteone)
I appreciate this is not related to this case, but its nice to clarify a point

pass and repass is described on the second post here.

viewtopic.php?t=8919

crazydrum95
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:24 am

Re: Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

Post by crazydrum95 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:03 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:32 pm
Hi crazydrum95,

Houses A, B & C can park on GREEN OR RED, as long as there is 1 clear path from front to back.

that sounds convoluted - is this just your take on things having viewed the docs? can you post the wording for this?

kind regards, Mac
hi Mac,

See my post above about posting the docs, how do I go about this?

The exact wording is very clear. Its not convoluted at all. And this is not just my take, my solicitor has checked and confirmed this is correct.

Cheers

Andy

MacadamB53
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Re: Neighbours blocking my access to ROW parking

Post by MacadamB53 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:51 pm

Hi crazydrum95,

the most straightforward way is to type the wording into a post.

failing that, you’re looking at links to scanned images or similar.

so your right to park on D’s land is subject to nobody being parked on C’s land?

kind regards, Mac

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