Neighbour granted permission to build on our ROW

SJC14
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Re: Neighbour granted permission to build on our ROW

Post by SJC14 »

Some photos would help here. Why does the private ROW exist...ie can you only access part of your property or garden via this route? If you built an extension would that give you direct access and not need to use the private ROW? If the latter is correct then surely it makes your property worth more as people do not like having to access property so close to others which sounds like you have to.
SwitchRich
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Re: Neighbour granted permission to build on our ROW

Post by SwitchRich »

Hi Butterfliesandbees,
I thought I would comment on the potential sale of a ROW for you as valuing it is truly a dark art.
When you think about the value you should consider the reduction in value to your house added to the increase in value to you neighbours house. This gives you the total possible value of the ROW.
Think only in percentages of the total value of each of the houses in question.

Also if either property has a mortgage (very likely) then you will also need to secure agreement from them to allow this to happen as they will have first charge on the property. Also these mortgage companies will need legal representation which your neighbour will have to pay for if they want to proceed. So that could mean 4 sets of legal fees they would need to cover. Theirs, yours and each of the mortgage companies. If you said £700 each that might be a good guess.

Getting your mortgage companies agreement should be relatively easy as they themselves do not see value in in a ROW such as this (something that was used to supply a coal shed at the rear) From their point of view they asses a whole slew of more important factors (location/build quality/transport links/schools etc etc). In that calculation they would not consider rear garden access to deviate a property's value by even 1%. If however it is a ROW that is essential for access (it would be landlocked otherwise) or it was to access a parking place etc then you might find them resisting your moves as they would see a detriment to the value of their asset.

Getting your agreement to do it is based solely emotion and your own personal circumstances. You mentioned using the ROW for your buggy etc. As you correctly stated there are thousands of homes in London (and all over the UK) with no rear access that are worth many hundreds of thousands of pounds. With the advent of central heating these ROW's are as defunct as the idea of heating your homes with coal.

Getting your neighbours mortgage company to agree is easy. They will see it as a benefit and only want their lawyers fee paid to process it.

Getting your neighbours agreement will be the challenge. Even given in your case where they have explicitly stated a desire for it happen. What you will argue about is the percived percentage increase in the value of their house. It would seem in this case that the ROW goes past their kitchen which they don't like. Added to the fact that they need this extinguished for their planned extension. This puts you in a strong position to insist on a decent perceived increase in value. You could perhaps look for a 3% premium which in most cases would be at the very upper end of any valuation.

So let's look at some proposed numbers (I'm assuming yours and your neighbours house are worth £300,000)

Total Solicitors fees (4x700) = £2,800
Mortgage admin fees ~£150 each
Land Registry fees ~£40 each property
Your houses devaluation (assume 0.5%) = £1,500
Your neighbours increase in value (assume 3%) £9,000

Total cost to your neighbour = £13,680
You receive £10,500

So in your situation with twins on the way this could be a very nice windfall to come your way, and if there is a window of opportunity to get a deal done and if you can accept that losing the ROW won't affect you significantly then go for it.
This is all predicated on the fact that your neighbour wants this to happen and therefore values the extinguishment of the ROW. In nearly all cases any person with a ROW on their property would rather it not be there. But when it comes to getting their wallet out to have it removed nearly all back away because they realise they can in fact just put up with it as there are better things to spend good money on.
Collaborate
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Re: Neighbour granted permission to build on our ROW

Post by Collaborate »

OP cannot agree to abandon the ROW without consent from their lender.
Roblewis
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Re: Neighbour granted permission to build on our ROW

Post by Roblewis »

The statement by the District Judge is to me written as "dicta" that is something which MUST happen and not merely commentary to any form of injunction. Without agreement from yourselves the neighbour has to go to the high court to try and reverse this judgement - there is no need for a further injunction from yourself. His likelihood of success is pretty low and his and your costs together will likely exceed 100k. If you want to allow a change to the ROW then you have a very strong hand to make it work for you both financially and giving you the width access you need. Do not try to extinguish the ROW as this will be bad for the house value and opposed by your mortgage company
MacadamB53
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Re: Neighbour granted permission to build on our ROW

Post by MacadamB53 »

Roblewis wrote: Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:36 am The statement by the District Judge is to me written as "dicta" that is something which MUST happen and not merely commentary to any form of injunction. Without agreement from yourselves the neighbour has to go to the high court to try and reverse this judgement - there is no need for a further injunction from yourself. His likelihood of success is pretty low and his and your costs together will likely exceed 100k. If you want to allow a change to the ROW then you have a very strong hand to make it work for you both financially and giving you the width access you need. Do not try to extinguish the ROW as this will be bad for the house value and opposed by your mortgage company
+1
Butterfliesandbees
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Re: Neighbour granted permission to build on our ROW

Post by Butterfliesandbees »

Thank you for your replies so far. This is all very much still ongoing.

We have only JUST received some documents from our neighbour. I fear this is going to cost him a lot as his solicitor seems quite incompetent. We've been sent out-dated and extinguished documentations which we previously advised him on but his solicitor is still using - he is the one set to lose out, not us. And by trying to be neighbourly we did inform him of this.. ...

The documentation sent to us only includes a proposed map of the new right of way, no drawing of the proposed boundary, no assurance that the current dimensions of the right of way will be matched with a new right of way. We have contacted our neighbour to give him the benefit of the doubt/save him some money and said until he can supply the above, we will withhold it from our solicitor who is likely to just contact his solicitor saying "please supply x y z" and send him a big bill for it.

Talking of solicitors, his solicitor said they are only prepared to cover "reasonable" costs. Considering we are not gaining anything from this, it seems absolutely preposterous to suggest we might get a bill in the post that his solicitor is advising his client to not cover the cost of.

Our right of way is also likely to be out of action for several months as he has to re-site 3x drains and excavate and enormous 1m deep trench to accommodate this.

I just feel like we are going to be seriously inconvenienced and potentially out of pocket which is very scary.

@SwitchRich regarding valuations - his house is currently worth £400,000 and he estimates it to be worth in excess of £500,000 once the work is completed. The increase is considerably more than 3%. Based on this, would the calculations you proposed vary by the same amount?

With thanks,

Lucy
Butterfliesandbees
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Re: Neighbour granted permission to build on our ROW

Post by Butterfliesandbees »

SJC14 wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:51 am Some photos would help here. Why does the private ROW exist...ie can you only access part of your property or garden via this route? If you built an extension would that give you direct access and not need to use the private ROW? If the latter is correct then surely it makes your property worth more as people do not like having to access property so close to others which sounds like you have to.
The right of way is the only way of accessing our garden without going through our house. None of our internal door ways are in a straight line either, so to get to the garden involves navigating our hall, lounge, kitchen and back door, all of which are not in a straight line. Does this make sense?

The right exisited to allow horse and carraiges pull up at the back of the houses/row of cottages to deliver necessities and to also draw water from a shared tap, now extinguished. The right of way was re-worded over the years and currently stands at a 1953 dated version which included phrases like "full length and width", "at all times and for all purposes", "for owners, predecessors, tradesmen, visitors" & importantly "vehicular access" which is where the definition of dimensions is so important. If the dimension were to change, our car would not fit around the right of way. It does not include the facility to park which is fine, but we do use it for garden projects, delivery of white goods to our kitchen/back door and wood deliveries to our log store.
Butterfliesandbees
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Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:04 pm

Re: Neighbour granted permission to build on our ROW

Post by Butterfliesandbees »

SwitchRich wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:27 pm Hi Butterfliesandbees,
I thought I would comment on the potential sale of a ROW for you as valuing it is truly a dark art.
When you think about the value you should consider the reduction in value to your house added to the increase in value to you neighbours house. This gives you the total possible value of the ROW.
Think only in percentages of the total value of each of the houses in question.

Also if either property has a mortgage (very likely) then you will also need to secure agreement from them to allow this to happen as they will have first charge on the property. Also these mortgage companies will need legal representation which your neighbour will have to pay for if they want to proceed. So that could mean 4 sets of legal fees they would need to cover. Theirs, yours and each of the mortgage companies. If you said £700 each that might be a good guess.

Getting your mortgage companies agreement should be relatively easy as they themselves do not see value in in a ROW such as this (something that was used to supply a coal shed at the rear) From their point of view they asses a whole slew of more important factors (location/build quality/transport links/schools etc etc). In that calculation they would not consider rear garden access to deviate a property's value by even 1%. If however it is a ROW that is essential for access (it would be landlocked otherwise) or it was to access a parking place etc then you might find them resisting your moves as they would see a detriment to the value of their asset.

Getting your agreement to do it is based solely emotion and your own personal circumstances. You mentioned using the ROW for your buggy etc. As you correctly stated there are thousands of homes in London (and all over the UK) with no rear access that are worth many hundreds of thousands of pounds. With the advent of central heating these ROW's are as defunct as the idea of heating your homes with coal.

Getting your neighbours mortgage company to agree is easy. They will see it as a benefit and only want their lawyers fee paid to process it.

Getting your neighbours agreement will be the challenge. Even given in your case where they have explicitly stated a desire for it happen. What you will argue about is the percived percentage increase in the value of their house. It would seem in this case that the ROW goes past their kitchen which they don't like. Added to the fact that they need this extinguished for their planned extension. This puts you in a strong position to insist on a decent perceived increase in value. You could perhaps look for a 3% premium which in most cases would be at the very upper end of any valuation.

So let's look at some proposed numbers (I'm assuming yours and your neighbours house are worth £300,000)

Total Solicitors fees (4x700) = £2,800
Mortgage admin fees ~£150 each
Land Registry fees ~£40 each property
Your houses devaluation (assume 0.5%) = £1,500
Your neighbours increase in value (assume 3%) £9,000

Total cost to your neighbour = £13,680
You receive £10,500

So in your situation with twins on the way this could be a very nice windfall to come your way, and if there is a window of opportunity to get a deal done and if you can accept that losing the ROW won't affect you significantly then go for it.
This is all predicated on the fact that your neighbour wants this to happen and therefore values the extinguishment of the ROW. In nearly all cases any person with a ROW on their property would rather it not be there. But when it comes to getting their wallet out to have it removed nearly all back away because they realise they can in fact just put up with it as there are better things to spend good money on.
@SwitchRich regarding valuations - his house is currently worth £400,000 and he estimates it to be worth in excess of £500,000 once the work is completed. The increase is considerably more than 3%. Based on this, would the calculations you proposed vary by the same amount?
despair
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Re: Neighbour granted permission to build on our ROW

Post by despair »

I would tell your neighbour to go whistle ....hope your solicitor is paid for by your legal insurance cover on your house insurance or mortgage or credit cards
mr sheen
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Re: Neighbour granted permission to build on our ROW

Post by mr sheen »

Not sure why you are pussyfooting about with such an important asset.
I would be writing back to their solicitor making my position very clear...And my letter would include ALL relevant documentation (ie all plans, all deeds, the previous injunction etc etc) and be along lines.....


Your client: Joe Bloggs

I acknowledge receipt of your letter dated.......

As you are aware our property benefits from a right of way at all times. Please find enclosed copies of documentation relating to the right of way.

According to documents your client is initiating building works on his property that will obstruct our right of way and hence cause a substantial interference with our rights and prevent our full enjoyment of our property.

We have sought to be reasonable in this matter but no satisfactory agreement has been reached and hence I hereby inform you that wehave today instructed our solicitor to seek an immediate injunction to prevent any works interfering with our right of way.



And my next letter would be to my solicitors to initiate proceedings.
SwitchRich
Posts: 248
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:34 am

Re: Neighbour granted permission to build on our ROW

Post by SwitchRich »

Butterfliesandbees wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:32 pm @SwitchRich regarding valuations - his house is currently worth £400,000 and he estimates it to be worth in excess of £500,000 once the work is completed. The increase is considerably more than 3%. Based on this, would the calculations you proposed vary by the same amount?
Hi Butterfliesandbees,
The method I proposed to value a Right of Way or Easement is a more formulaic process rather than just sticking your finger in the air. It is simplistic in the assumption that the ROW in question is not required for essential land access or parking etc, and just for the now defunct need to resupply a coal shed etc. Many modern homes are now built without rear garden access through another properties land so giving up your ROW will be a personal decision based on what you can hope to agree with your neighbour integrated with how much you actually use it day to day if at all.

In terms of the percentages. The 3% increase in your neighbor's property is solely due to the removal of the ROW and does not include the works he will be doing.
The reason that the 3% increase is so high is that he needs this ROW to be extinguished in order to complete the works he wants to do. And without its extinguishment he cannot proceed without your consent. (even if he has planning)
This is why I suggested the 3% figure because of your commanding legal position and their need for the ROW to be extinguished. If this were not the case then the percentage would be nearer 1%
So I have rerun the numbers for the suggested values you have just given. (which is a very simple process anyway). Please see below.


Neighbours house value: £500,000 (after the proposed works will be finished)
Your house value: £400,000


Total Solicitors fees (4x700) = £2,800
Mortgage admin fees ~£150 each
Land Registry fees ~£40 each property
Your houses devaluation (assume 0.5%) = £2,000
Your neighbours increase in value (assume 3%) £15,000

Total cost to your neighbour = £20,180
You receive £17,000


And as I have pointed out previously you will need both of your mortgage companies to agree to this also. If one says no then the deal is off. However as I also mentioned a mortgage company/surveyor has a complex set of calculations that build up to a value (location/build quality/proximity to rivers for risk of flooding/transport links/schools etc etc) and rear garden access of this sort does not factor.


And with the figure now just north of £20,000 for your neighbour, you can see why a lot of these ROW's still exist. As when it comes to getting the wallet out most people decide there are better things to spend their hard earned money on.
despair
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Re: Neighbour granted permission to build on our ROW

Post by despair »

Truly excellent reply ...sock it to the neighbour ..ROW are still valuable if you care about the interior of your house
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