Neighbour widened access point

Frances
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Neighbour widened access point

Post by Frances » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:24 am

So, we have new neighbours who whilst developing a small plot of land have enlarged their access point and the relevant background is as follows:

- planning permission has been granted to replace a dwelling on a very small plot of land which runs parallel to our privately owned track
- the dwelling had not been lived in for 20 years prior to planning permission being given
- the access point was at the top end of the plot and was 8ft wide (marked by concrete posts and wrought iron gate)
- there is no easement or right of way over our track in any deeds
- we're assuming that they would have a right of access since can't be land locked
- apart from the defined access point the boundary of our track and their plot is an old hedge

Over the last couple of weeks they have taken off about 12ft of hedge to expand and move down the access point. Our we within our rights to mark out the boundary ourselves over the length that was previously marked by the hedge and therefore limiting the access point to the original area? The concern is that there will be 'creep' from their occupation of the plot over time and spill over onto our track.

Thanks in advance for any comments

arborlad
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Re: Neighbour widened access point

Post by arborlad » Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:51 am

Is there any connection with any of your previous threads?
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

arborlad
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Re: Neighbour widened access point

Post by arborlad » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:27 am

A sketch or anonymised title plan would help.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

FilthWizzard
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Re: Neighbour widened access point

Post by FilthWizzard » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:39 am

My understanding is that unless there is something specified, it is usually considered that they can open a gate wherever they like on the border onto the track. Try putting some posts in at the border (but wholly on your land and not causing an obstruction), one at one end of their property and one at the other. That way, if anything projects beyond the invisible line between those posts you can show it is encroachment.

Collaborate
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Re: Neighbour widened access point

Post by Collaborate » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:48 am

FilthWizzard wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:39 am
My understanding is that unless there is something specified, it is usually considered that they can open a gate wherever they like on the border onto the track. Try putting some posts in at the border (but wholly on your land and not causing an obstruction), one at one end of their property and one at the other. That way, if anything projects beyond the invisible line between those posts you can show it is encroachment.
The right the neighbours have is a prescriptive right. Therefore they can only access their land following the route when the right was created - ie the old access point. They have no right to open a new access point further down your path, though they could create a new point earlier (I am assuming there are no verges).

Frances
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Re: Neighbour widened access point

Post by Frances » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:29 pm

arborlad wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:51 am
Is there any connection with any of your previous threads?
No there isn't :)

Frances
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Re: Neighbour widened access point

Post by Frances » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:36 pm

arborlad wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:27 am
A sketch or anonymised title plan would help.
ROW map.png
Our land is blue - the original access point is in pink and new access point is in purple and pink
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

MacadamB53
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Re: Neighbour widened access point

Post by MacadamB53 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:57 pm

Hi Frances,

The right the neighbours have is a prescriptive right

can we see the wording please? how long ago was this acquired?

kind regards, Mac

arborlad
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Re: Neighbour widened access point

Post by arborlad » Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:06 pm

Frances wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:24 am
- apart from the defined access point the boundary of our track and their plot is an old hedge


Who owns the hedge?
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

FilthWizzard
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Re: Neighbour widened access point

Post by FilthWizzard » Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:13 pm

Collaborate wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:48 am
FilthWizzard wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:39 am
My understanding is that unless there is something specified, it is usually considered that they can open a gate wherever they like on the border onto the track. Try putting some posts in at the border (but wholly on your land and not causing an obstruction), one at one end of their property and one at the other. That way, if anything projects beyond the invisible line between those posts you can show it is encroachment.
The right the neighbours have is a prescriptive right. Therefore they can only access their land following the route when the right was created - ie the old access point. They have no right to open a new access point further down your path, though they could create a new point earlier (I am assuming there are no verges).
Ah, so a prescriptive right only goes via the original entrance that gained the right. That makes sense. Thanks for the info.

Collaborate - I fear I have reported your post to the mods by clicking the wrong button when I meant to reply. Sorry.

pilman
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Re: Neighbour widened access point

Post by pilman » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:02 pm

When looking at the map it was unclear whether the route to the pink gates was from the south or from the north, although you used the phrase "top end of the plot" that implies that access is over the southern part of the track, so a vehicle would turn off the track sooner by entering through the purple entry point than one did previously using the pink entry point.

If your sole worry is about encroachment onto your land then you can erect a means of identifying your legal boundary if that is possible, but I would not have thought that you can define the point of entry on to the plot that is to be redeveloped.

The mention of a prescriptive right of way can only be someone expressing a personal opinion, since there are other ways of gaining a legal easement, such as Section 62 Law of Property Act 1925 which would have meant that an existing right would have passed as a legal easement when the red edged land was conveyed.
That would mean that there is a legal easement existing for the benefit of the red land, even if it is not recorded in a deed.

Use the www.old-maps.co.uk web-site to see how long ago this plot had the use of the access track that you now own. That will allow an assessment of how long such use has been happening so that it did become a legal easement when the plot was conveyed many years ago when the only way to access the plot was by using the track.

The fact that the house has remained unoccupied for 20 years implies that it was a very long time ago that the owner of the original started using the track. The earlier Ordnance Survey maps that can be viewed on the old-maps web-site will show you how long a house has existed on the plot, but you need to be aware that proving your legal boundary and disproving the right of the plot owner to create a new entrance when a new house is being built is a civil legal matter that could require a court ruling to decide the matter.

You need to give careful consideration as to whether there will be a serious need to pursue a legal resolution, or whether you are starting to worry unnecessarily about the development of the plot now that there is a new owner.

Frances
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Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:20 pm

Re: Neighbour widened access point

Post by Frances » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:12 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:57 pm
Hi Frances,

The right the neighbours have is a prescriptive right

can we see the wording please? how long ago was this acquired?

kind regards, Mac
There is nothing in writing in either sets of deeds in relation to this property

Frances
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:20 pm

Re: Neighbour widened access point

Post by Frances » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:13 pm

arborlad wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:06 pm
Frances wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:24 am
- apart from the defined access point the boundary of our track and their plot is an old hedge


Who owns the hedge?
That's never been discussed. Gate posts were on the inner side of the hedge but in order to not cause unnecessary 'arguments' my parents have allowed them to assume ownership of the hedge

Frances
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:20 pm

Re: Neighbour widened access point

Post by Frances » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:17 pm

pilman wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:02 pm
When looking at the map it was unclear whether the route to the pink gates was from the south or from the north, although you used the phrase "top end of the plot" that implies that access is over the southern part of the track, so a vehicle would turn off the track sooner by entering through the purple entry point than one did previously using the pink entry point.

If your sole worry is about encroachment onto your land then you can erect a means of identifying your legal boundary if that is possible, but I would not have thought that you can define the point of entry on to the plot that is to be redeveloped.

The mention of a prescriptive right of way can only be someone expressing a personal opinion, since there are other ways of gaining a legal easement, such as Section 62 Law of Property Act 1925 which would have meant that an existing right would have passed as a legal easement when the red edged land was conveyed.
That would mean that there is a legal easement existing for the benefit of the red land, even if it is not recorded in a deed.

Use the www.old-maps.co.uk web-site to see how long ago this plot had the use of the access track that you now own. That will allow an assessment of how long such use has been happening so that it did become a legal easement when the plot was conveyed many years ago when the only way to access the plot was by using the track.

The fact that the house has remained unoccupied for 20 years implies that it was a very long time ago that the owner of the original started using the track. The earlier Ordnance Survey maps that can be viewed on the old-maps web-site will show you how long a house has existed on the plot, but you need to be aware that proving your legal boundary and disproving the right of the plot owner to create a new entrance when a new house is being built is a civil legal matter that could require a court ruling to decide the matter.

You need to give careful consideration as to whether there will be a serious need to pursue a legal resolution, or whether you are starting to worry unnecessarily about the development of the plot now that there is a new owner.
That is correct that the new access point means that they turn off the track sooner.
The property was a pre-fab that was built in the 1940s.

MacadamB53
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Re: Neighbour widened access point

Post by MacadamB53 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:16 pm

Frances wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:12 pm
MacadamB53 wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:57 pm
Hi Frances,

The right the neighbours have is a prescriptive right

can we see the wording please? how long ago was this acquired?

kind regards, Mac
There is nothing in writing in either sets of deeds in relation to this property
please digest pilman’s posting - all talk of their plan being unlawful may be dubious at best.

kind regards, Mac

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