Damage from today's Storm

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Collaborate
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Re: Damage from today's Storm

Post by Collaborate » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:17 pm

stufe35 wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:50 am
Mac...heres my first stab at it...!

Inspections should be carried out such that the need for repairs or replacement are identified and carried out before structural failure occurs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30780504

"Health and Safety Executive (HSE) accused it of failing to properly inspect and maintain the fence lining the queue."
Responsibilities placed upon businesses are just that. They do not apply to private individuals.

What speed of wind do you think a fence should withstand? Do you think it should withstand a 150mph wind? 100mph? 80? 60?

Where do you draw the line?

stufe35
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Re: Damage from today's Storm

Post by stufe35 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:18 pm

In the UK we design structures to with stand the wind loading given in BS EN 1991-1-4...the actual wind speed used for design varies according to where you are. The components in the fencing are designed to BS1722.
There is a simplified guide here showing the windspeed map for the uk

http://wiki.dtonline.org/index.php/Wind_Load

Richard C
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Re: Damage from today's Storm

Post by Richard C » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:43 am

Thanks to all for your contributions. Next door has replaced their fence panels but has made no communication by way of apology or comment on the damage/demolition of my bin enclosure so, presumably, he expects me to foot my own repair bill!

Lets hope Dennis doesn't repeat the scenario this weekend as I won't be here to pick up the pieces!

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Re: Damage from today's Storm

Post by Collaborate » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:03 pm

stufe35 wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:18 pm
In the UK we design structures to with stand the wind loading given in BS EN 1991-1-4...the actual wind speed used for design varies according to where you are. The components in the fencing are designed to BS1722.
There is a simplified guide here showing the windspeed map for the uk

http://wiki.dtonline.org/index.php/Wind_Load
That's an interesting link.

It divides the country up in to areas where the max wind speed is 47,51,56 and 60mph.

Storm Ciara saw speeds of up to 97 mph. In most places there were gusts of over 60mph. Building to the standards you suggest will not have prevented damage happening somewhere even with properly built and maintained structures. Thankfully in the UK we do not have strict liability laws for these things.

stufe35
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Re: Damage from today's Storm

Post by stufe35 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:38 pm

Collaberate,

If you found that interesting well.....

As i mentioned the link is a very simplified version to give a taste of whats involved--wind speeds on the map are mean average reading which give a starting point for the calculation which then have factors imposed on them. I cant access anything on the BS because you have to buy them at great expence. Below however is a link to the industry guidance for the erection of hoardings around building sites. These are of course just fences , but are subject to a slightly different process of design because they are classed as Temporary Works....ie they are only in place for a limited length of time. The majority of the design is actually essentially the same however (or makes use of the same principles). If you have a look at page 8 and page 28 Appendix B it shows in slightly more detail how the wind pressure on a hoarding (fence) is calculated and you will get an flavour of how complicated the code for permanent structures must be.

On the bright side if you pop to Wickes or B & Q to buy your fence panels and buy the recommended posts and bury them to the depths in the instructions and use the fixings as stated in the instructions you can be reasonably confident your fence will comply to the relevant codes. (and hence wont blow over ) Issues arise when cowboy installers and DIYERS dont follow instructions on the packet or when people dont repair or renew when required.


http://www.crawley.gov.uk/pub_livx/grou ... 208452.pdf

and a link to a prosecution

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/li ... ng-3392961

stufe35
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Re: Damage from today's Storm

Post by stufe35 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:52 pm

A bit more reading around and i think ive deduced correctly that typically the effective wind pressure coeffiecient is about 2 and the ULS load factor of 1.5 is added...so the typical windspeed being designed for is say 50 x 2 x 1.5 = 150mph.....which why when we have big storms like Ciria our buildings , sky scrapers, sign posts, roofs, walls, fences, lamposts, etc etc all stay in place .

http://www.mcrma.co.uk/pdf/Wind_guidanc ... _final.pdf

https://eurocodeapplied.com/design/en19 ... ressure-uk

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Re: Damage from today's Storm

Post by Collaborate » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:19 am

Many thanks for the links.

Although I did get my A level maths many moons ago I started to feel a little dizzy looking at all of those equations.

Clearly it's not as straight forwards as I initially thought, but I'm fairly sure that prosecutions only apply to businesses rather than private individuals (the HSE's remit of course). That of course is different to the question of who is liable to repair the damage, though I suspect the level of detail and investigation necessary to investigate will be overkill when the cost of damage is considered.

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