Trespassing pipe and other problems

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luggsey
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Trespassing pipe and other problems

Post by luggsey » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:16 pm

Hi all, been many years since I last looked in here!
I have a problem.....
Without any previous warning I have just received a County Court Possession of Property form from a third partys solicitor.

Firstly, we have a sewer pipe from our ground to the manhole outside our house on the claimants lane, it's about 3m from our gate to the manhole. We had this installed more then a year ago following verbal permissions, all other houses in the hamlet have also connected to the drains this way. Is it causing a trespass if se were told by the owner to go ahead and it's been there much more then a year without complaint?

We have a claim with Land Registry to a lane beside our house we have had sole control of for 30+ years, despite the claim being with Land Registry the claimant is trying to get possession using the possession of property paperwork, can we have this dismissed due to the Land Registry considering our claim?

Our septic tank was leaking due to excess rain onto the claimants land, they have attached this and complaint of various items being left on their property by us, this was a field that was rented and had rubbish on when we rented it, can we be held responsible for the rubbish?

I have contacted a solicitor but would like to hear any professional opinion on my problems!

I think the claimants solicitor is trying it on to be honest but I obviously have to sort it out?

Thanks.
Luggsey.

mr sheen
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Re: Trespassing pipe and other problems

Post by mr sheen » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:48 pm

Please clarify exactly what you have received....you say ‘CC possession of property form???
What exactly is the title of this?
Is it a CC order?

luggsey
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Re: Trespassing pipe and other problems

Post by luggsey » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:53 pm

Hi, I have never seen court papers before so I just copied the title of it? Its asking me to attend court and has a payment section on it?
It appears to be the same document a court issues to allow a property to be repossessed but in this instance it's a lane?
Just to add we were never paying to rent the lane, only the field at the end of it. The claimant purchased the fields at the end of the lane and we vacated them as required but we have been in control of the lane for 30+ years with a gate up most of that time.

mr sheen
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Re: Trespassing pipe and other problems

Post by mr sheen » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:39 pm

It looks as though they are pursuing the matter against you as a tenant and the fact that you paid any rent is a problem.
Did you have a tenancy agreement in writing showing exactly what you were renting and the rent paid?

I would say you need a solicitor to review all the documentation to see if there is a defence to the claim.
Without reviewing all the docs it is impossible to pass opinion on your position in relation to a complex issue like this where rent has been paid, an application for adverse possession has been submitted etc etc.

If the Lane led to the rented land then you are unlikely to succeed in AP since renting the land would have come with a right of way over the lane to access the land and hence you effectively rented a right of way over it which will make a claim of AP difficult to win.

luggsey
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Re: Trespassing pipe and other problems

Post by luggsey » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:09 pm

It's more complicated then that really, my Brother farmed the two fields for about 11 years before the owner realised he was there, he was granted an agricultural tenancy on the fields not the lane, we accessed the fields through our own field.
We have controlled the lane for about 30 years now.

mr sheen
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Re: Trespassing pipe and other problems

Post by mr sheen » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:24 am

An agricultural tenancy agreement on the field would come with any rights associated with the field eg right to access via a lane that serves the field.

You say you ‘controlled’ the lane but if the lane goes to the field, then as a tenant of the field you would have rights of way over the lane, so your use of it was to be expected by the lane owner. Your legitimate use of the lane is likely to undermine a claim of AP.

If the lane goes to the field, and a tenancy agreement applies to the field, then the owner of the field can can recover his land and such recovery will automatically rescind the right of way over the lane.

MacadamB53
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Re: Trespassing pipe and other problems

Post by MacadamB53 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:28 am

mr sheen wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:24 am
An agricultural tenancy agreement on the field would come with any rights associated with the field eg right to access via a lane that serves the field.

You say you ‘controlled’ the lane but if the lane goes to the field, then as a tenant of the field you would have rights of way over the lane, so your use of it was to be expected by the lane owner. Your legitimate use of the lane is [99.99%] likely to undermine a claim of AP.

If the lane goes to the field, and a tenancy agreement applies to the field, then the owner of the field can can recover his land and such recovery will automatically rescind the right of way over the lane.
+1

stufe35
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Re: Trespassing pipe and other problems

Post by stufe35 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:37 am

Presumably during the time you used the field without the owners knowledge and subsequently rented it, you accessed it through your fields because you happened to own adjacent fields and it was convenient for you to do this. ? (ie there are no rights of way across your fields to access this field ?) It would seem anyone else owning or renting the land in the 100's of years before your use of this field would have used this lane ? (unless they too happened to own fields adjacent to it on one of its other sides ?) If the owner of the field doesn't own the lane then they it would seem almost certainly have a right of way along it. ? The purpose of this lane is to access the field it leads no where else ?
we have had sole control of for 30+ years,
by this do you mean you are the only ones who have used the lane because you have owned or rented (or used without the owners knowledge) all the land along this lane...ie it leads no where else so no one else would have cause to use it. ?

Are you trying to claim possession of the lane in order to prevent its use to access the field ? or for some other purpose ?

Collaborate
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Re: Trespassing pipe and other problems

Post by Collaborate » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:30 pm

If it's a professional opinion you're after make sure you get it from your solicitor. You won't get that here.

arborlad
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Re: Trespassing pipe and other problems

Post by arborlad » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:44 pm

luggsey wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:16 pm
............... a third partys solicitor.



Have you checked the credentials of this solicitor?
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

luggsey
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Re: Trespassing pipe and other problems

Post by luggsey » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:50 pm

Aborlad no I haven't, good point!

As far as the other responses, thank you, food for thought?
The tenancy was created by a government arbitration so the original owners never raised any agreements that included the lane. The new owner of the ground also never had a tenancy agreement written up so the lane in question was never mentioned.
In the time we have controlled the lane we had it gated off, gates fitted by us, we made another access into it from our house to cross the lane and we used it to park our car in.
We also extended our septic tank pipe into it.
It was originally part of a larger farm, the lane dosent need to be used by the owner of the fields we used to have a tenancy on as they are both having houses built on them with other access, the lane we control (for want of a better term) is narrow and unsuitable for vehicles. It makes our land more valuable which is what I suppose this must be about as they could not use it for any other purpose.
Another point is my name is on the court papers yet I have nothing to do with the lane or the previous tenancy, should I inform the claimant sooner or later or would this be grounds for the claim to fail?
The lane is subject to a Land Registry claim under the older law so we are considering asking for a adjournment of the case pending the outcome of this, should we be informing the claimant sooner or later?
Complicated!

arborlad
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Re: Trespassing pipe and other problems

Post by arborlad » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:32 pm

luggsey wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:50 pm
......... the lane dosent need to be used by the owner of the fields we used to have a tenancy on as they are both having houses built on them with other access,


Having another access wont void any rights they (might) have over the lane.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

stufe35
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Re: Trespassing pipe and other problems

Post by stufe35 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:00 pm

It was originally part of a larger farm,
a starting point for seeking out who the true current owner is ?

luggsey
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Re: Trespassing pipe and other problems

Post by luggsey » Thu Mar 12, 2020 6:05 pm

Legal insurance claim started today, I thought it prudent to start that claim without answering any paperwork sent to me.

Stufe35 the farm was bought by a builder about 20 or more years ago, that would have included the lane we control, the builder showed no interest on the lane, see further on. This builder did not buy the two fields at the end of the lane so had no interest in it, hence we used it as our own for so long. That same builder then purchased the two fields at the end of the lane 3 or four years ago so is now interested in the lane again!
They have claimed we gated the lane a year ago, we have old photos that disprove this and have people that will sign paperwork to confirm how long we have 'controled' it.

ukmicky
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Re: Trespassing pipe and other problems

Post by ukmicky » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:46 pm

Collaborate wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:30 pm
If it's a professional opinion you're after make sure you get it from your solicitor. You won't get that here.
Ditto.

This is to complicated for a forum. It’s possible you have a legitimate claim to the lane especially if it’s unregistered at the land registry but so much is dependant on any rights of access you had and dates and it will take someone to sit down with all the relevant paperwork to be for sure.

If the an AP claim has been logged at the land registry for the lane, evidence of the claim will need to be given to the court.

Providing the court with the evidence of a prior claim should be enough for them to suspend any proceeding for repossession until the land registry have dealt firstly with the AP claim .
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

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