History Of A Property

This forum is for Garden Law problems that don't fit into the other categories. Please treat it with respect.

Moderator: Angelisle

Post Reply
MothOfDoom
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:19 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 10
Number of topics per page: 10

History Of A Property

Post by MothOfDoom » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:02 am

I've been trying to research the history of my cottage for a few years now but in recent months largely due to the TV program "History Of A House" i've renewed my interest in my own cottage.

Researching the history of a cottage isn't as easy as researching your own ancestral family history and requires an understanding of conveyancing and other legal stuff which aren't written all that well at times, well that’s not entirely true as i'm sure it all made sense at the time all those years ago.

I have my original deeds which go back as far as 1886 "An abstract of Title". By the structure, architecture, the windows and materials used i think the date of the cottage is roughly 1750 / 1800'ish.

Online i've found a valuations book giving me the owner of the property and describes the property perfectly in 1804, acres, poles and perches and its taxable value and amount paid etc but there is a single word that i'm struggling with "Rights"

It names my cottage then the word "Rights" is written afterwards, does anybody know what this may refer too or means? No other neighbouring property has the same word written after its name! There are a small number other properties elsewhere in the valuations book that do have the word "Rights" written in after the name of the building.

In 1806 the then owner or "Copyholder" dies and within his will the property goes to his nephew. I have found a "Copy Surrender" filed at the "Manor of Mordor" which dates a month after his death which if i'm right surrenders the copyhold back to the manor.

Can i assume that there will be another piece of paper drafted by the manor making the nephew the new copyholder somewhere?

Can someone please help me and in laymans words describe to me what the process would of been when someone buys, sells, dies and passes on a copyhold property. How many bits of paper would of been involved?

My local library / archive have a Manorial Court Roll 1700 to 1925 and in an attempt to reduce the amount of work i will have to do to find the records i'm looking for i think an understanding of how it all worked will help when i visit the centre next week.

In 1806 the property is "Copyhold" and in 1886, 1889, 1912 but in a conveyance dated 1929 its described as "Formally copyhold to the manor of Mordor". Will there be a piece of paper somewhere changing a copyhold property to a freehold property and if so where may i find it? Will it be within the Manorial Court Roll?

Who would of built the building in the first place? The Manor of Mordor? Will there be a record somewhere, Where? Will my first record be when the owner / the manor draft the first copyhold document to the first copyholder?

Any guidance / help will be much appreciated.

MothOfDoom
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:19 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 10
Number of topics per page: 10

Re: History Of A Property

Post by MothOfDoom » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:36 am

Sorry for the double post, my first post. My first post didn't appear in the list of posts as expected after a MySQL General Error Message. Hence a second attempt at posting only to find that after a sizeable delay my initial post appeared?

Sorry for the double post.

jdfi
Posts: 547
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:39 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 50

Re: History Of A Property

Post by jdfi » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:12 pm

Mordor as in Lord of the Rings?

Copyhold is non existent now I believe, but read https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyhold

MothOfDoom
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:19 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 10
Number of topics per page: 10

Re: History Of A Property

Post by MothOfDoom » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:08 pm

Thank you for the link, yes I know but I wanted to maintain a certain amount anonymity. I slipped up a few years ago and someone reading through several posts managed to identify who and where I was in the world and I all got very messy, police got involved and it all got far too serious.


So yes I've substituted the real name of my local manor for the word Mordor on purpose.

jdfi
Posts: 547
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:39 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 50

Re: History Of A Property

Post by jdfi » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:23 am

Googling the correct name of the manor may throw up some unexpected articles.

Consider what business the Lord was in. If for example it was mining, there are various mine history websites that will say a sentence in passing "in 1894 lord mordor built an extra 200 workers cottages" for example.

MothOfDoom
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:19 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 10
Number of topics per page: 10

Re: History Of A Property

Post by MothOfDoom » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:38 am

I've done alot of googling about the manor and the family etc etc which has thrown up nothing about the cottage i'm researching.

I'm trying to research the history of a specific building, my cottage and i think i'll find what i'm looking for within thousands of historical documents such as copyhold surrenders, conveyance documents and will and probate documents of the copyholders.

tried to google the copyhold process to find out how many bits of paper are involved when a copyhold property changes hands whether it be sold or passed to next of kin according to details in a will at probate.

Example: Copyholder "John Smith" dies and leaves a will leaving the property to his next of kin, eldest son "Thomas Smith". I'd like to know what the process would of been? Would it of been......

The Lord or Lady of the manor would issue a "Copy Surrender" The properties copyhold is given back to the manor?
The Lord or Lady of the manor would issue a new copyhold contract to the new copyholder "Thomas Smith"?

Essentially two bits of paper or would there more more or can this of been done with just one piece of paper being created by the manor.

Trying to trace the owners of the property "My Cottage" back through time from copyholder to copyholder and hopefully establish an aprox date as to when the cottage was first built or when the first copyhold tennants were.

In such a situation is it possible that they may be paperwork detailing the errection of the building somewhere within the thousands of documents held at my local archive and if so what am i looking for and where may it be to be found?

Could there be a contract somewhere between the manor and a builder prior to it being built if so what would such a document of been called between 1740 and 1800 and where might i find it?

Once i've established as far as possible who owned the cottage and who its Copyhold tennants, freehold owners and occupiers are i'll then start researching the lives of these people and try and get images of them if possible.

I'm visiting the local archives later this week to look through the Manoral Court Roll 1700 to 1925, i understand the basics of copyholding but i can't find out, work out how many bits of paper i'm looking for for each change of tennant. There will be thousands of bits of paper to look through. Trying to be economical with the time and my effort looking through them if at all it's possible by having a better understanding of how the trail of paperwork works.

In the 1700's what's the youngest age a boy /man could inherit a copyhold property? 11yrs old? I ask because one of the properties copyhold tennants was only 11yrs old when his father died. My assumption is that he didn't inherit my cottage from his father at 11yrs old in 1744 but rather became an owner "Copyholder" later in life. Say at least 20yrs old in 1753. At what age at this time would a manor allow a young man to take ownership of a property by copyhold of the manor?

This will help to perhaps narrow down the number of years i have to search through.

Roblewis
Posts: 1799
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:41 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: History Of A Property

Post by Roblewis » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:44 pm

A son could not take control of an estate until the age of 21. Up to that age he would be under the wardship of a nominated adult. Duties such as undertaking the Courts Baron would also be undertaken by an appointed adult.

MothOfDoom
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:19 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 10
Number of topics per page: 10

Re: History Of A Property

Post by MothOfDoom » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:23 am

Thank you Roblewis this really will to reduce the the number of years i search through as i'm exprcting an awfull lot of stuff to look through.

MothOfDoom
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:19 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 10
Number of topics per page: 10

Re: History Of A Property

Post by MothOfDoom » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:49 pm

On reading an abstract of title dated 1901 i find the words "By INDRE of enfranchisement". although I’ve worked out what the abbreviations of some words mean i'm struggling with the abbreviation INDRE.

Does anybody know what the abbreviation INDRE means at all?

A copyholder "John Smith" took ownership of the copyhold property in 1886 and died as a freeholder in 1919. i've found an entry in the abstract of title whereby i think "John Smith" becomes the freeholder freed from the manor of Mordor and it's this entry that begins "by INDRE of enfranchisement". It ends by saying registered at "town" in Vol.34 P.193 No.187 but doesn't say what this Vol is. Can anybody help me find this book "Vol.34" by way of telling me what this book is called as it must have a name as such. So that i can see it for myself.

What should i ask for at the local archive?

Roblewis
Posts: 1799
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:41 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: History Of A Property

Post by Roblewis » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:17 pm

I believe it refers to INDividual Right to Extend

MothOfDoom
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:19 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 10
Number of topics per page: 10

Re: History Of A Property

Post by MothOfDoom » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:43 am

Thank you again, very much appreciated and of course that makes sense too.

Any thoughts as to what Vol.34 may be? I'm guessing i can't just go to my local archive and ask to see Vol.34. There first question will be Vol.34 of what i'm guessing.

arborlad
Posts: 7779
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: History Of A Property

Post by arborlad » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:30 am

MothOfDoom wrote:Thank you again, very much appreciated and of course that makes sense too.

Any thoughts as to what Vol.34 may be? I'm guessing i can't just go to my local archive and ask to see Vol.34. There first question will be Vol.34 of what i'm guessing.


As good as the internet is as a resource, I've always found archivists and librarians to be helpful if they know the context of what you are seeking.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

MothOfDoom
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:19 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 10
Number of topics per page: 10

Re: History Of A Property

Post by MothOfDoom » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:49 am

Thank you arborland, you're right of course, i will take as much info as i have and ask.

What do i know so far........... For those that may be interested or inspired to do the same.

1804: The copyholder is a large landowner of a lot of farmland and farms etc and lives elsewhere. He is a shipowner and trades in the importing of textiles. His brother is also a wealthy shipowner but sadly trades within the slave industry.

1806: Willed to nephew who fought at the battle of Trafalgar in a senior position. His brothers also fought at a number of battles too.

1835: It remains in the family but now belongs to a Timber Merchant importing timber.

1862: No longer in the family and is now owned by a Pinder and a well sinker, he kills himself digging a well in a nearby garden, well collapses in on him.

1868: Property splits into two and becomes a lodging house.

After this date there are many occupiers of various trades, waiters, carriers, engine drivers, station master and others.

When i've established a timeline of ownership and its occupiers as far as possible it's my intension to then explore the lifes of these people in much more detail.

Post Reply