Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

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arborlad
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Re: Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

Post by arborlad » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:26 pm

smileyman wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:40 pm
Some may be well meaning but I can state here and now that there is every likelihood that there are are some regulars who will be looking for the vulnerable to private message and exploit with sub standard advice at a cost.


If this has genuinely happened to you - it should be reported to Admin!
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

mr sheen
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Re: Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

Post by mr sheen » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:53 pm

My sincere apologies Smileyman, I was not aware that you only wanted support for your lunacy.

my apologies, I will now make way for the flood of supporting comments.

Collaborate
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Re: Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

Post by Collaborate » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:43 pm

I for one am looking forward to Mr Smileyman’s proposal of opening a hospital staffed by county councillors. Those doctors and nurses are just so damned expensive. Full of vested interests.

smileyman
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Re: Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

Post by smileyman » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:49 am

arborlad wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:26 pm
smileyman wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:40 pm
Some may be well meaning but I can state here and now that there is every likelihood that there are are some regulars who will be looking for the vulnerable to private message and exploit with sub standard advice at a cost.


If this has genuinely happened to you - it should be reported to Admin!

Well actually it did happen to me a few years back buy a regular well known poster, he offered a quite strong opinion on the legal position (later proved decidedly wrong) the use of his headed notepaper with replies to use in the dispute even suggested designing property himself. I am not suggesting the forum as I think Mr Sheen said was created for wrong intent but its just obvious that there are many vulnerable people who find themselves in a dispute and that not all those appearing to be guardian angels helping from their goodness of their heart are in reality doing so.Why would anyone trust 'help' here any no more than anyone phoning you up you didn't know, its not a world where people can be trusted on face value. Once a 'helper' has your email address sourced via private messaging you are vulnerable because you are already feeling vulnerable from your dispute.The answer why I didn't flag it up at the time (actually I did under a previous username several years back and I did post a comment advising caution). Self regulating bodies simply cannot be trusted and there are very few exceptions, I considered a post likely to be more effective than going to Admin. Anyone posting shock, horror that not everyone offing help is doing so from good intent are either naive or dishonest This is all by the way and I would suggest no one posts unless they have a positive contribution to make of how neighbour disputes could be simplified in terms of costs and duration. Any genuine positive contributions welcome, maybe we could start a private forum away from such questionable unproductive adversary.

arborlad
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Re: Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

Post by arborlad » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:35 am

smileyman wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:49 am




If this has genuinely happened to you - it should be reported to Admin!

Well actually it did happen to me a few years back buy a regular well known poster, he offered a quite strong opinion on the legal position (later proved decidedly wrong) the use of his headed notepaper with replies to use in the dispute even suggested designing property himself. I am not suggesting the forum as I think Mr Sheen said was created for wrong intent but its just obvious that there are many vulnerable people who find themselves in a dispute and that not all those appearing to be guardian angels helping from their goodness of their heart are in reality doing so.Why would anyone trust 'help' here any no more than anyone phoning you up you didn't know, its not a world where people can be trusted on face value. Once a 'helper' has your email address sourced via private messaging you are vulnerable because you are already feeling vulnerable from your dispute.The answer why I didn't flag it up at the time (actually I did under a previous username several years back and I did post a comment advising caution). Self regulating bodies simply cannot be trusted and there are very few exceptions, I considered a post likely to be more effective than going to Admin. Anyone posting shock, horror that not everyone offing help is doing so from good intent are either naive or dishonest This is all by the way and I would suggest no one posts unless they have a positive contribution to make of how neighbour disputes could be simplified in terms of costs and duration. Any genuine positive contributions welcome, maybe we could start a private forum away from such questionable unproductive adversary.



I'm struggling on several fronts to give any sort of credence to any of the above..............it's badly quoted giving the (false) impression that I wrote it, it's badly formatted making it difficult to read, having two usernames breaks forum rules, what was your other username? If there was genuine wrongdoing by any member and it was correctly reported - what was the outcome?

You keep asking for positive comments on a patently bad idea - it just aint gonna happen.

Feel free to start your own Forum.

Feel free to stop posting on this 'questionable unproductive' one!
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

IdefixUK
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Re: Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

Post by IdefixUK » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:42 pm

smileyman.
If you were to get enough support and start your own forum would you allow private messaging? How would you safeguard against people joining who are secretly against your ideas?
If you really want to change things get in touch with your MP and ask them to put forward a private members bill.
Usually, first timers on this site ask for help, this allows a discussion to commence.

I have yet to see anyone post anything but an opinion or their personal advice. This site is not a court of law. You have made it clear that historically you have been wrongly advised by expensive solicitors, that is for you to take up with them.(well that's my advice,take it or leave it)

I have read many of the postings on this site going back over time, and it is clear that some people just repeat their questions time and time again in the hope of getting the answer they seek. This action serves no purpose other than to annoy the other posters, and to make the threads tedious to read ( or perhaps not as the case may be).

I for one am happy enough with this forum and the way it works.

This is my last post on this thread (although I'm not sure if I'm qualified enough to write that)

Clifford Pope
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Re: Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

Post by Clifford Pope » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:58 pm

Before dismissing the idea out of hand it might be worth comparing the situation with other areas of dispute, equally complicated, equally subject to legal pitfalls, but nonetheless sometimes benefitting from unqualified commonsense as an option at an early stage to secure agreement before escalating costs ensue.

In employment disputes there are potentially three stages:

1) Internal company procedures.
2) Recourse to an Employment Tribunal
3) Further court actions, all the way up to the Supreme Court

A complainant is not allowed to proceed straight to stage 2 until he has exhausted the capabilities of internal procedures. These are in most instances handled by amateurs in employment law, simply trying to do their best. If it results in an agreement, so much the better. If the complainant is still disgruntled, he can take the matter to the tribunal.
They are a court of law, but obviously not staffed by experts at the level of leading counsel and high court judges.

The point of the progression is to filter out low-key or trivial complaints at the earliest stage at which everyone can be persuaded to see sense. I don't see why in principle something similar couldn't be worth exploring here. There would be no compulsion to accept arbitration, but failure to behave reasonably would not help someone's case at the next stage.

Another analogy might be marriage guidance or attempted conciliation before initiating divorce proceedings.
I haven't so far seen any persuasive arguments as to why neighbours' disputes should be peculilarly unamenable to arbitration attempts.

smileyman
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Re: Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

Post by smileyman » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:05 pm

Clifford Pope wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:58 pm
Before dismissing the idea out of hand it might be worth comparing the situation with other areas of dispute, equally complicated, equally subject to legal pitfalls, but nonetheless sometimes benefitting from unqualified commonsense as an option at an early stage to secure agreement before escalating costs ensue.

In employment disputes there are potentially three stages:

1) Internal company procedures.
2) Recourse to an Employment Tribunal
3) Further court actions, all the way up to the Supreme Court

A complainant is not allowed to proceed straight to stage 2 until he has exhausted the capabilities of internal procedures. These are in most instances handled by amateurs in employment law, simply trying to do their best. If it results in an agreement, so much the better. If the complainant is still disgruntled, he can take the matter to the tribunal.
They are a court of law, but obviously not staffed by experts at the level of leading counsel and high court judges.

The point of the progression is to filter out low-key or trivial complaints at the earliest stage at which everyone can be persuaded to see sense. I don't see why in principle something similar couldn't be worth exploring here. There would be no compulsion to accept arbitration, but failure to behave reasonably would not help someone's case at the next stage.

Another analogy might be marriage guidance or attempted conciliation before initiating divorce proceedings.
I haven't so far seen any persuasive arguments as to why neighbours' disputes should be peculiarly unamenable to arbitration attempts.
Thank you Clifford Pope I was beginning to despair; you have fully grasped my points which as you infer are common sense and could possibly be applied. I will reflect on your words and come back and comment in the meanwhile any other positive contributions welcome.

mr sheen
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Re: Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

Post by mr sheen » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:12 pm

Incorrect information re employment tribunal.

You have to submit an ET1 claim within 3 months of the event often well before internal processes are complete. You can proceed straight to stage 2 if you wish and do not have to use the internal processes if you don't want to, however you may be penalised in terms of compensation amount awarded if you don't use the internal processes.

Once an ET1 claim is submitted, a well trained legal professional expert employment judge is allocated and manages the case.

Collaborate
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Re: Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

Post by Collaborate » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:40 pm

mr sheen wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:12 pm
Incorrect information re employment tribunal.

You have to submit an ET1 claim within 3 months of the event often well before internal processes are complete. You can proceed straight to stage 2 if you wish and do not have to use the internal processes if you don't want to, however you may be penalised in terms of compensation amount awarded if you don't use the internal processes.

Once an ET1 claim is submitted, a well trained legal professional expert employment judge is allocated and manages the case.
You cannot submit a claim to the employment tribunal until all internal appeals and grievances have been exhausted. I do fundamentally disagree with Smileyman's and Clifford Pope's rather naive claim that the internal disciplinary procedure of a business can in any way be described as [helpful] "amateurs... trying to do their best". Far from it. They are one of the potential protagonists. You are simply not allowed to involve the tribunal until the work-based process has run its course, as it's only then that you have a final determination.

I agree that it would be unwise in the extreme for a poster here to rely upon anonymous advice and thereby adopt a particular position in their own dispute. This forum is I think a good starting point for people to either be confident they're not wasting their own money in seeking professional advice, or go on and undertake their own legal research.

mr sheen
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Re: Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

Post by mr sheen » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:54 pm

I'm sorry Collaborate but you are incorrect. The latest Employment Tribunal Rules of procedure 2013 do not prevent a claim direct to ET. There is now no compulsion to exhaust internal grievance processes and you can, if you so wish, proceed direct to ET without going through internal processes. However, compensation amount may be penalised if you don't make use of internal processes and of course one should exhaust all internal processes first but it is not compulsory.

It is compulsory to go through early conciliation with ACAS before submission of ET1.

I know these rules inside out since just last month I completed as a representative for employee for ET claim (although didn't need to go to tribunal since the employer settled following an Order for employer disclosure of specific documents which revealed practices which employer was not aware of)

Collaborate
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Re: Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

Post by Collaborate » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:23 pm

mr sheen wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:54 pm
I'm sorry Collaborate but you are incorrect. The latest Employment Tribunal Rules of procedure 2013 do not prevent a claim direct to ET. There is now no compulsion to exhaust internal grievance processes and you can, if you so wish, proceed direct to ET without going through internal processes. However, compensation amount may be penalised if you don't make use of internal processes and of course one should exhaust all internal processes first but it is not compulsory.

It is compulsory to go through early conciliation with ACAS before submission of ET1.

I know these rules inside out since just last month I completed as a representative for employee for ET claim (although didn't need to go to tribunal since the employer settled following an Order for employer disclosure of specific documents which revealed practices which employer was not aware of)
I stand corrected, then. Employment Law isn't my field. So I would be the ideal person to be a parish council judge on this subject.

arborlad
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Re: Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

Post by arborlad » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:36 am

arborlad wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:35 am
If there was genuine wrongdoing by any member and it was correctly reported - what was the outcome?



So the claim is false then - what was your other username?
arborlad

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smileyman
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Re: Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

Post by smileyman » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:47 am

arborlad wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:36 am
arborlad wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:35 am
If there was genuine wrongdoing by any member and it was correctly reported - what was the outcome?



So the claim is false then - what was your other username?

if you read my post carefully I said I posted a comment to warn others and that I did not trust self regulation. Its good to know some of you have genuine intent of help but common sense would be for anyone seeking advice here to be careful. Use the forum for free advice if necessary (some is good some is not) but be very careful as you are vulnerable. On the more general point this post is on the topic of proposing a better method of dispute resolution. Would all those who have nothing positive to add stop picking fights and trying to rubbish the post, one would have to ask what is your motivation as on a general point without going into details there are many areas where there are agreed procedures for dispute resolution without full scale litigation. To propose looking into such is sensible. What is not sensible are the rude unhelpful comments. Anyone interested please private message me and once we have at least 4 we can see if we can work together to put some meat on the bones.

Smileyman

alyson
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Re: Let's see if we can propose a better way of dispute proposal

Post by alyson » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:54 am

smileyman wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:47 am
arborlad wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:36 am
arborlad wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:35 am
If there was genuine wrongdoing by any member and it was correctly reported - what was the outcome?




if you read my post carefully I said I posted a comment to warn others and that I did not trust self regulation. Its good to know some of you have genuine intent of help but common sense would be for anyone seeking advice here to be careful. Use the forum for free advice if necessary (some is good some is not) but be very careful as you are vulnerable. On the more general point this post is on the topic of proposing a better method of dispute resolution. Would all those who have nothing positive to add stop picking fights and trying to rubbish the post, one would have to ask what is your motivation as on a general point without going into details there are many areas where there are agreed procedures for dispute resolution without full scale litigation. To propose looking into such is sensible. What is not sensible are the rude unhelpful comments. Anyone interested please private message me and once we have at least 4 we can see if we can work together to put some meat on the bones.

Smileyman
So, on the one hand you are warning against self regulation and relying on the advice of well meaning but not necessarily qualified forum members, yet this is precisely what you are advocating as a mechanism for dispute resolution?

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