Replacement sewer treatment plant

This forum is for Garden Law problems that don't fit into the other categories. Please treat it with respect.

Moderator: Angelisle

Post Reply
peacemaker
Posts: 172
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 9:12 pm

Replacement sewer treatment plant

Post by peacemaker » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:53 pm

Hello, I live on a farm that has been converted to residential properties. Some of you will know me from the ROW sub forum. Our sewage connects to a septic tank on our neighbour's land that has been condemned by the environmental agency who are enforcing a replacement system is installed. Although we contribute towards the tank being emptied periodically are we liable to contribute towards it replacement if there is no reference to it in our property deeds? It's not a small sum either, which is £40k split between four properties.
If the liability was stated in my deeds then I might have thought twice about purchasing the property but as it's not then is it mandatory that I pay.
Would appreciate your thoughts as I don't have £10k.
Thanks

ukmicky
Posts: 5138
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:13 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20
Location: London

Re: Replacement sewer treatment plant

Post by ukmicky » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:22 pm

Lets put it this way .

The owner of the land the septic tank is on is under no legal obligation to provide you with a working system . He could if he wished put his own system somewhere else on his land and leave you to sort out your own. if I were in his position I would involve my neighbours in the decision making process but if they refused to take part and pay towards the repair of the old system or a new system if one were required I would simply put in my own for my own use and leave the others high and dry.

Whilst 10 thou may a be lot of money ,when you compare it to the benefit you will gain and the value of your house with somewhere to send your waste compared to the value if you cant flush a toilet ,its not.

However 40 k does sound like a lot of money for what you need and if I were paying towards a new system I would want input into what I was paying towards.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

ukmicky
Posts: 5138
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:13 pm
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20
Location: London

Re: Replacement sewer treatment plant

Post by ukmicky » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:31 pm

Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

peacemaker
Posts: 172
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 9:12 pm

Re: Replacement sewer treatment plant

Post by peacemaker » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:01 pm

Thanks UKMickey, I haven't been involved and just sent a £40k quote. I'm hoping that's the first and there will be cheaper ones being sourced. As you're aware from the ROW post I don't have open dialogue with my neighbour due to the dispute escalation.

mr sheen
Posts: 2637
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:33 pm

Re: Replacement sewer treatment plant

Post by mr sheen » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:25 pm

Oooooooh the neighbour holds some serious cards.

check the provision in the deeds for a joint sewage system being available to all on the neighbour's land.

since it has become obsolete ie it has been condemned, the neighbour could just put in his own sewage system and leave everyone else to do the same. It appears that this may cost around £40k each.

If there is no provision in the deeds for the neighbour to be burdened permanently by the joint sewage system then you could have a big problem.

I would never buy a property where I was dependent upon a neighbour for en essential service but faced with this situation, I would remove all my dependencies on other people and put in my own system. If it wasn't possible to put in my own system, I would be being very nice to the neighbour on whom I am dependent for sewage management.

If the deeds are silent on the sewage system and/or what happens in this situation, the neighbour is in the driving seat big time and if he does go down the route of replacing the system for all neighbours, he can choose the system he wants on his land and you will have the option of paying your portion or not using the sewage system.

peacemaker
Posts: 172
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 9:12 pm

Re: Replacement sewer treatment plant

Post by peacemaker » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:59 pm

Hello Mr Sheen,

Here are my deeds, thanks for looking:

A: Property Register
This register describes the land and estate comprised in the title.
xxxxxxxxxxxxx : xxxxxxxxxxx
1 (26.08.1998) The Freehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the
above Title filed at the Registry and being “MY PROPERTY”).
2 (26.08.1998) The land has the benefit of the following rights reserved
by but is subject to the following rights granted by a Transfer of
adjoining land known as EX-FARM WHERE I LIVE dated 1 June 1998 made between
(1) PLANT BREEDING BUSINESS (Transferor) and (2) NEIGHBOUR (Transferees):-
"Together with the benefit of the matters contained in the First
Schedule hereto.
SUBJECT TO
THE FIRST SCHEDULE hereinbefore referred to
(Rights in favour of the Transferees)
1. The full and free right for the Transferees in common with the
Transferors and its successors in title owners and occupiers for the
time being of the retained land of the Transferor and any part thereof
to lay within eighty years from the date hereof any drains channels
sewers pipes water courses cables and wires under the retained land
with all easements rights and privileges appropriate for constructing
and repairing renewing and relaying and maintaining the same subject to
the Transferees being responsible for any damage caused in the exercise
of such rights before reinstating and making good the same.
2. The right of the Transferees and their successors in title and
lessee and tenants workmen servants agents and other duly authorised by
them so to do to enter the retained land or any part thereof after
giving reasonable notice for the purpose of altering repairing
reinstating repainting and maintaining any building erected at the date
hereof on the property hereby transferred in so far as such alterations
repairs reinstatements and repainting and maintenance cannot be carried
out without such entry hereby reserved and exercised subject to the
Transferees and their successors in title being responsible for any
damage caused by the exercise of such rights.
1 of 3
A: Property Register continued
THE SECOND SCHEDULE hereinbefore referred to
(Rights reserved to the Transferor and its successors in title lessees
and tenants)
i. The right at any time hereinafter to erect or suffer to be erected
and to alter any buildings or other erections now or hereafter to be
erected on any part of the retained land and with all such windows and
openings for light and air and in such manner and all respects as the
Transferor may think fit without any consent whatsoever on the part of
the Transferees or their successors in title owners or occupiers for
the time being of the property hereby transferred or any right on the
Transferees part to object thereto or claim compensation on the grounds
of any interference with the access of light or air to the property
hereby transferred or otherwise and no windows or lights which are
placed in any such buildings for access of light or air thereto shall
at any time hereafter be in any manner stopped obstructed or interfered
with by the Transferees or their successors in title.
ii. The full and free right for the Transferor in common with the
Transferees and their successors in title owner or owners and occupiers
for the time being of the property of uninterrupted passage and running
of water soil gas electricity and other services to and from the
retained land through all drains channels gutters sewers pipes water
courses cables and wires which are now or may at any time within eighty
years from the date hereof be laid in over or under the property hereby
transferred with all easements rights and privileges appropriate for
constructing repairing renewing and maintaining the same subject to the
Transferors and its successors in title being responsible for any
damage caused in the exercise of such rights and for reinstating and
making good the same.
iii. A right of way with or without motor vehicles at all times and
for all purposes for the Transferors and their successors in title (in
common with the Transferees and their successors in title lessees
tenants workmen servants agents and the other duly authorised by them
so to do) over and along the road way shown coloured yellow on the plan
annexed hereto leading from the retained land to the public highway
SUBJECT TO the Transferor paying a fair and proportionate part of the
maintenance thereof."
NOTE: The retained land referred to is the land in this title and the
roadway coloured yellow referred to is reproduced on the filed plan.
B: Proprietorship Register
This register specifies the class of title and identifies the owner. It contains
any entries that affect the right of disposal.
Title absolute
1 (04.06.2014) PROPRIETOR: ME AND MY PROPERTY
2 (04.06.2014) The price stated to have been paid on 29 April 2014 was
£xxxxxx.
C: Charges Register
This register contains any charges and other matters that affect the land.
1 (26.08.1998) By a Conveyance of the land in this title and other land
dated 1 September 1975 made between (1) FARMER (vendors) and (2) PLANT BREEDING BUSINESS the land was
conveyed subject as follows:-
Subject to and with the benefit of (a) the provisions of a Deed of
Grant dated Twenty first day of May One thousand nine hundred and sixty
nine made between the vendors of the one part Midland Bank Limited of
Title number XXXXXXXX
2 of 3
C: Charges Register continued
the second part and the Gas Council of the third part (b) a Deed of
Grant of Easement in favour of South Western Gas Board dated Eleventh
day of September One thousand nine hundred and fifty eight (c) three
Wayleave Agreements with the Midlands Electricity Board covered by
Agreements xxxx xxxx xxxx so far as the same are subsisting and
capable of taking effect.
NOTE: No further particulars of the Deeds referred to above were lodged
on first registration.
2 (15.05.2015) REGISTERED CHARGE dated 27 March 2015.
3 (15.05.2015) Proprietor: BANK
4 (15.05.2015) The proprietor of the Charge dated 27 March 2015 referred
to above is under an obligation to make further advances. These
advances will have priority to the extent afforded by section 49(3)
Land Registration Act 2002.
End of register

peacemaker
Posts: 172
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 9:12 pm

Re: Replacement sewer treatment plant

Post by peacemaker » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:01 pm

And my neighbour's deeds:

Title Number : xxxxxxx
This title is dealt with by HM Land Registry, Gloucester Office.
The following extract contains information taken from the register of the above title
number. A full copy of the register accompanies this document and you should read that
in order to be sure that these brief details are complete.
Neither this extract nor the full copy is an 'Official Copy' of the register. An
official copy of the register is admissible in evidence in a court to the same extent
as the original. A person is entitled to be indemnified by the registrar if he or she
suffers loss by reason of a mistake in an official copy.
This extract shows information current on 6 AUG 2018 at 13:27:17 and so does not take
account of any application made after that time even if pending in HM Land Registry
when this extract was issued.
REGISTER EXTRACT
Title Number : xxxxxx
Address of Property : xxxxxx Farm, xxxxxxxxxx,
xxxxxxxxx
Price Stated : Not Available
Registered Owner(s) : CURRENT NEIGHBOUR OF FARM
Lender(s) : None
1 of 4
This is a copy of the register of the title number set out immediately below, showing
the entries in the register on 6 AUG 2018 at 13:27:17. This copy does not take account
of any application made after that time even if still pending in HM Land Registry when
this copy was issued.
This copy is not an 'Official Copy' of the register. An official copy of the register
is admissible in evidence in a court to the same extent as the original. A person is
entitled to be indemnified by the registrar if he or she suffers loss by reason of a
mistake in an official copy. If you want to obtain an official copy, the HM Land
Registry web site explains how to do this.
A: Property Register
This register describes the land and estate comprised in
the title.
1 (21.07.1998) The Freehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the
above Title filed at the Registry and being FARM
NOTE: The land tinted green on the filed plan is not included in this
title.
2 (21.07.1998) The land has the benefit of the following rights granted
by but is subject to the following rights reserved by a Transfer of the
land in this title dated 1 June 1998 made between (1) PLANT BREEDING BUSINESS(Transferor) and (2) NEIGHBOUR (Transferees):-
"Together with the benefit of the matters contained in the First
Schedule hereto.
SUBJECT TO
THE FIRST SCHEDULE hereinbefore referred to
(Rights in favour of the Transferees)
1. The full and free right for the Transferees in common with the
Transferors and its successors in title owners and occupiers for the
time being of the retained land of the Transferor and any part thereof
to lay within eighty years from the date hereof any drains channels
sewers pipes water courses cables and wires under the retained land
with all easements rights and privileges appropriate for constructing
and repairing renewing and relaying and maintaining the same subject to
the Transferees being responsible for any damage caused in the exercise
of such rights before reinstating and making good the same.
2. The right of the Transferees and their successors in title and
lessee and tenants workmen servants agents and other duly authorised by
them so to do to enter the retained land or any part thereof after
giving reasonable notice for the purpose of altering repairing
reinstating repainting and maintaining any building erected at the date
hereof on the property hereby transferred in so far as such alterations
repairs reinstatements and repainting and maintenance cannot be carried
out without such entry hereby reserved and exercised subject to the
Transferees and their successors in title being responsible for any
damage caused by the exercise of such rights.
THE SECOND SCHEDULE hereinbefore referred to
(Rights reserved to the Transferor and its successors in title lessees
and tenants)
i. The right at any time hereinafter to erect or suffer to be erected
and to alter any buildings or other erections now or hereafter to be
erected on any part of the retained land and with all such windows and
openings for light and air and in such manner and all respects as the
Transferor may think fit without any consent whatsoever on the part of
the Transferees or their successors in title owners or occupiers for
the time being of the property hereby transferred or any right on the
Transferees part to object thereto or claim compensation on the grounds
Title number XXXXXXX
2 of 4
A: Property Register continued
of any interference with the access of light or air to the property
hereby transferred or otherwise and no windows or lights which are
placed in any such buildings for access of light or air thereto shall
at any time hereafter be in any manner stopped obstructed or interfered
with by the Transferees or their successors in title.
ii. The full and free right for the Transferor in common with the
Transferees and their successors in title owner or owners and occupiers
for the time being of the property of uninterrupted passage and running
of water soil gas electricity and other services to and from the
retained land through all drains channels gutters sewers pipes water
courses cables and wires which are now or may at any time within eighty
years from the date hereof be laid in over or under the property hereby
transferred with all easements rights and privileges appropriate for
constructing repairing renewing and maintaining the same subject to the
Transferors and its successors in title being responsible for any
damage caused in the exercise of such rights and for reinstating and
making good the same.
iii. A right of way with or without motor vehicles at all times and
for all purposes for the Transferors and their successors in title (in
common with the Transferees and their successors in title lessees
tenants workmen servants agents and the other duly authorised by them
so to do) over and along the road way shown coloured yellow on the plan
annexed hereto leading from the retained land to the public highway
SUBJECT TO the Transferor paying a fair and proportionate part of the
maintenance thereof."
¬NOTE: Copy plan filed.
3 (21.07.1998) The Transfer dated 1 June 1998 referred to above contains
the following provision:-
"It is hereby declared as follows:-
(a) All drains sewers septic tank apparatus wires pipes and cables now
used and enjoyed or intended to be used in common by the owners and
occupiers for the time being of the property hereby transferred and the
retained land shall continue to be so used and enjoyed and shall be
repaired and maintained at the fair and proportionate expense of the
owners of the properties entitled to use them.
(b) In the absence of agreement as to what constitutes a fair and
proportionate expense for the purposes of (a) above the matter shall be
determined by a Surveyor nominated on the application of either party
by the President of the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors who
shall act as expert and his decision including as to his costs shall be
binding."
4 (09.02.2000) The land edged and numbered in green on the title plan has
been removed from this title and registered under the title number or
numbers shown in green on the said plan.
5 (09.02.2000) The land has the benefit of the rights reserved by but is
subject to the rights granted by a Transfer of NEXT DOOR FARM LABOURER’S COTTAGE
edged and numbered XXXXX in green on the filed plan dated 21
December 1999 made between (1) CURRENT NEIGHBOUR (2) MR & MRS PINK.
¬NOTE: Original Transfer filed under XXXXX.
6 (31.07.2008) A new title plan based on the latest revision of the
Ordnance Survey Map has been prepared.
7 (31.07.2008) The land has the benefit of the rights reserved by but is
subject to the rights granted by the Transfer dated 23 May 2008
referred to in the Charges Register.
8 (17.11.2009) The land has the benefit of the rights reserved by but is
subject to the rights granted by a Transfer of the land edged and
numbered XXXXXXX on the title plan dated 30 October 2009 made between
(1) CURRENT NEIGHBOUR (2) MR BROWN.
Title number XXXXXX
3 of 4
A: Property Register continued
¬NOTE: Copy filed under XXXXXX.
9 (17.06.2015) The land has the benefit of the rights reserved by but is
subject to the rights granted by a Transfer of the land edged and
numbered XXXXXX in green on the title plan dated 12 June 2015 made
between (1) CURRENT NEIGHBOUR HUSBAND and (2) CURRENT NEIGHBOUR WIFE.
¬NOTE: Copy filed under XXXXXXX.
10 (19.06.2015) The land has the benefit of the rights reserved by but is
subject to the rights granted by a Transfer of the land edged and
numbered XXXXXXX in green on the title plan dated 12 June 2015 made
between (1) CURRENT NEIGHBOUR HUSBAND AND WIFE (2) CURRENT NEIGHBOUR HUSBAND.
¬NOTE: Copy filed under XXXXXXX.
B: Proprietorship Register
This register specifies the class of title and
identifies the owner. It contains any entries that
affect the right of disposal.
Title absolute
1 (21.07.1998) PROPRIETOR: CURRENT NEIGHBOUR ADDRESS FARM
C: Charges Register
This register contains any charges and other matters
that affect the land.
1 (21.07.1998) The land is subject to the rights granted by a Deed dated
21 May 1969 made between (1) 1975 FARMER OWNER
(2) Midland Bank Limited and (3) Gas Council.
The said Deed also contains restrictive covenants by the grantor.
¬NOTE: Copy filed.
2 (07.09.2001) A registered charge dated 30 April 2001 made between (1)
UCB Home Loans Limited and (2) CURRENT NEIGHBOUR
affecting XXXXXX is expressed to grant the following rights over the
land in this title:
Together with the following rights (in common with all others entire)
(1) right of way for all purposes over the land coloured yellow on the
plan and (2) rights to use inspect maintain and repair the services and
service channells and septic tank pipes and drains (inter alia) serving
the property subject to paying a fair proportionate of the cost of
repairs and maintainance of all matters used in common."
¬NOTE: Copy Plan filed.
3 (31.07.2008) A Transfer of the land edged and numbered XXXXXX on the
title plan dated 23 May 2008 made between (1) CURRENT NEIGHBOUR and (2) MR BLACK
contains restrictive covenants by the Transferor.
¬NOTE:-Copy filed under XXXXX.
End of register
Title number XXXXX
4 of 4

mr sheen
Posts: 2637
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:33 pm

Re: Replacement sewer treatment plant

Post by mr sheen » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:38 pm

Easements for repair/replacement of Sewers etc are covered in deeds, let's hope he sticks to it without unnecessary hassle or dispute of technicalities and individual words in the deeds such that he forces people to get solicitors and the process is delayed.
According to deeds, Dispute over cost can be decided by a surveyor.

He is not obliged to participate in the joint sewerage system and could put in his own and leave the rest to sort it out themselves.

Know of a case where sewer pipe going into system owned by them but on neighbour's land 'collapsed' and mysteriously 'blocked' multiple times making Easiest option getting their own treatment system on their own land at cost of £14000.

Joining mains sewerage can also be seriously expensive.

???? Time to look at getting your own system?

peacemaker
Posts: 172
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 9:12 pm

Re: Replacement sewer treatment plant

Post by peacemaker » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:52 pm

Thanks, if we wanted to pursue our own system we would have to redirect our pipe by severing it under a newly built extension which is not feasible. On the flip side he can't disconnect ours (our deeds state we enjoy uninterrupted passage) without disconnecting our neighbour's (adjoining semi) pipe who has also built a new extension over too.

peacemaker
Posts: 172
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 9:12 pm

Re: Replacement sewer treatment plant

Post by peacemaker » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:35 pm

Hello,

I received a more palatable quote from a local builder for a sewage plant replacement, instead of £29k plus VAT between four properties we have now been quoted £20k plus VAT based on a 25 person sewage treatment plant.

The quotation:

The calculations for the size of the sewage treatment plant required, can be found on the government and the British Water website, flows and loads regulations. To summarise:-

House 1 – 8 bedroom property requires a 10 person sewerage treatment plant.
House 2 – 3 bedroom property requires a 5 person sewerage treatment plant.
House 3 – 3 bedroom property requires a 5 person sewerage treatment plant.
House 4 – 3 bedroom property requires a 5 person sewerage treatment plant.
Equals 1 x 25 person sewerage treatment plant.

Here is the associated cost breakdown:

House 1 - £7,711.60 plus vat.
House 2 – £3,855.80 plus vat.
House 3 - £3,855.80 plus vat.
House 4 - £3,855.80 plus vat.

House 1 has stated that her deeds specify that the cost of the new tank should be split equally four ways between all four properties.

Now if it meant the cost of my contribution were to increase by a just a couple of hundred pounds then I wouldn’t object but it bumps up my contribution by £1200 include VAT which is significant.

Some of you might be aware of the background regarding the four properties where I reside., in a nutshell:

House 2 originally owned House 1 & 3 and then sold them, house 4 (mine) was never owned by house 2 .

Incidentally my deeds do not mention anything about contributing to the plant replacement but happy to do so but proportionately.

Notwithstanding, I don’t see why I should increase my contribution because house 1 owner both lives in a larger house which means the replacement costs are higher and allegedly has some deeds that specifies the cost should be split between four properties. How could this be when House 2 never owned my house (4)?

My thoughts are to request a copy of the deeds to evidence this but any other advice would be gratefully received on how to proceed.

SwitchRich
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:34 am

Re: Replacement sewer treatment plant

Post by SwitchRich » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:25 am

You don't need to request deeds for evidence. You can go and buy their deeds off landresistry for £3.

jonahinoz
Posts: 1547
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:15 pm

Re: Replacement sewer treatment plant

Post by jonahinoz » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:01 pm

Hi,

I'm guessing that this is NOT a case where a drain crossing a property boundary becomes a public drain?

John W

peacemaker
Posts: 172
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 9:12 pm

Re: Replacement sewer treatment plant

Post by peacemaker » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:18 pm

I realise that I can get a copy of title register just wasn't sure if deeds are something separate.

No crossing of drains or sewer then becoming a public one.

Post Reply