New development

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cobdale
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:19 pm

New development

Post by cobdale » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:38 pm

Hi ,haven’t posted in a while,but was wondering if anyone had ever been in this situation? Some of you may remember me posting about some land I bought and the aggro over the right of way ,I got that sorted ,the day before we went to court the op removed all obstacles and it’s been trouble free ever since, what’s happened now is the council have given planning permission for over a hundred houses ( socially affordable housing) and my small piece is included in it despite me informing them I didn’t wish to be included (I think it’s ten or eleven have been allocated on my small piece) no one has approached me to try and buy the land it’s a private development ,I don’t particularly want to sell but realize I may have to,at the moment I’m in no mans land as I don’t know what way it’s going to go,anyone else ever been in this situation? Thanks in advance

cleo5
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Re: New development

Post by cleo5 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:54 pm

Why should you have to sellyour land if you donot want to.

Have they offered you a price?
Have you informed the developers thatyourland is not for sale
Is your piece of land registered?
Have they fenced it off and acquired it?

cobdale
Posts: 358
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:19 pm

Re: New development

Post by cobdale » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:59 pm

No ones been in contact at all
I informed the council a few times throughout the planning process by email and phone
The land is registered to me
I am still on it with stables and horses
They have dug test holes on adjoining pieces of land but even when I spoke to their surveyors they didn’t seem to know what was going on

ukmicky
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Re: New development

Post by ukmicky » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 pm

Planning permission can be gained for land even if you are not the owner but they should be ticking a little box saying it is land not owned by them . I would ring the planners or visit in person if need be and ask them the question.

It may be a simple mistake but it maybe a mistake that could potential cause you a head ache unless you act quickly . Email the company who are performing the devolvement and ask whey why they have included your land in there plans .

Inform them at the same time you do not wish to sell and unless they resubmit there plans to the council with your land removed from it you will take out an injunction halting the development until they do so.

They cant force you to sell.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

cobdale
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Re: New development

Post by cobdale » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:29 pm

I will ring them tomorrow

Collaborate
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Re: New development

Post by Collaborate » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:55 pm

ukmicky wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 pm
Planning permission can be gained for land even if you are not the owner but they should be ticking a little box saying it is land not owned by them . I would ring the planners or visit in person if need be and ask them the question.

It may be a simple mistake but it maybe a mistake that could potential cause you a head ache unless you act quickly . Email the company who are performing the devolvement and ask whey why they have included your land in there plans .

Inform them at the same time you do not wish to sell and unless they resubmit there plans to the council with your land removed from it you will take out an injunction halting the development until they do so.

They cant force you to sell.
Sorry but this is a nonsense. Injunct them from doing what exactly? they have no right to build on OP's land, and every right to apply for PP for it or any other land they choose. Injunctions are granted by the courts to restrain someone from doing an unlawful act such as trespass, or libel, or domestic violence.

ukmicky
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Re: New development

Post by ukmicky » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:47 am

Collaborate wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:55 pm
ukmicky wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 pm
Planning permission can be gained for land even if you are not the owner but they should be ticking a little box saying it is land not owned by them . I would ring the planners or visit in person if need be and ask them the question.

It may be a simple mistake but it maybe a mistake that could potential cause you a head ache unless you act quickly . Email the company who are performing the devolvement and ask whey why they have included your land in there plans .

Inform them at the same time you do not wish to sell and unless they resubmit there plans to the council with your land removed from it you will take out an injunction halting the development until they do so.

They cant force you to sell.
Sorry but this is a nonsense. Injunct them from doing what exactly? they have no right to build on OP's land, and every right to apply for PP for it or any other land they choose. Injunctions are granted by the courts to restrain someone from doing an unlawful act such as trespass, or libel, or domestic violence.
What you have put is nonsense

Its called a quia timet injunction and as you are a solicitor you should be well aware of the type of injunction which is used before the act when someone is threatening to do something unlawful and you need to prevent it, which applying for planning permission on land not owned by the developers potentially is. And before you turn around and say you cant gain such an injunction to prevent a trespass that hasn't occurred yet , the courts have said you can .

If the developers fails to respond to the OPs concerns and have failed to tick the box saying the land they have submitted plans for is owned by a third party ( which the OP needs to check when he talks to the planners ) then the OP must consider the fact that the developers may attempt to build on it because the developers may actually consider the land or part of it as land owned by the development company and land not owned by the OP.

If large developers need land that sits outside the land they own they would prior to including it in the plans they submit to gain permission approach the land owner to see if they can purchase it. Large developers who want to turn a profit at the end of the year don't tend to submit plans to gain planning permission and include stuff they can’t deliver, as mistakes like this can cost a lot of money and potentially make the whole development unlawful . To include land in the plans that they can’t actually build on also leaves them with the potential that they won’t be able to comply with any planning obligations and as the granted permission will also be granted based on x amount of properties being deemed affordable housing if they reduce the number of properties and reduce the number of potential affordable houses that the public will benefit from it could once again leave them with an unlawful development.

Due to that before planning permission is applied for ,for large development like this developers tend to ensure the plans they submit are accurate and will detail measurements ,boundaries and how many properties there will be and where exactly those properties will be located and to ensure they get it right the land they will be building on will be professionally surveyed prior to submitting the plans because the permission when granted is for the whole development based entirely on the plans submitted, remove the OPS land and a new application is required . Developers don't submit plans for approval for a 100 plus house development unless they are sure they can comply with the approved plans submitted, so they must have plans for the OPS land and as time is money the last thing they will want to do is to submit a new application and then wait to see if the plans are approved with the changes.

If the OPs land is on the plans that have been approved that is a real cause for concern and as they haven’t approached the OP I personally would not simply sitting back thinking, oh this is my land, they must know this so wont attempt to build on it.

There have been countless cases of developers not listening to the little people and attempting to encroach on land not owed by them by mistake or design and if the OP gets nowhere with the developers and the council, to ensure he can go to sleep at night or leave his house for any length of time knowing that he will not come back to the diggers demolishing his fence or buildings he may need to consider threatening them with a pre-emptive quia timet injunction and if need be actually trying to gain one.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

Collaborate
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Re: New development

Post by Collaborate » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:34 am

So by your logic if I were to apply for PP to turn your home in to a brothel you seriously think you could get an injunction to stop me in the absence of me turning up at your front door with a sledgehammer?

arborlad
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Re: New development

Post by arborlad » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:48 am

cobdale wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:29 pm
I will ring them tomorrow



If ringing, ensure you have name and title or position of anyone you speak to.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

ukmicky
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Re: New development

Post by ukmicky » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:47 pm

Collaborate wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:34 am
So by your logic if I were to apply for PP to turn your home in to a brothel you seriously think you could get an injunction to stop me in the absence of me turning up at your front door with a sledgehammer?
Mad logic that
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

Collaborate
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Re: New development

Post by Collaborate » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:28 pm

ukmicky wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:47 pm
Collaborate wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:34 am
So by your logic if I were to apply for PP to turn your home in to a brothel you seriously think you could get an injunction to stop me in the absence of me turning up at your front door with a sledgehammer?
Mad logic that
Yes - utterly bonkers.

Anyone can apply for PP for property they do not own. For example I could apply to demolish your house ind replace it with a garden. The LPA may even grant it.

It still gives me no right to enter your house or demolish it. There are a number of things you need for property development:

1. Legal title.
2. Planning permission (where relevant)
3. Funding.

So what if someone has PP to develop OP's property? Nothing can happen. If someone suddenly started to build on OP's land without planning permission I suspect they'd be off to court for an injunction rather than complaining to the LPA.

jonahinoz
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Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:15 pm

Re: New development

Post by jonahinoz » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:34 pm

Hi,

Cobdale owns a plot of land, and somebody else has obtained PP to build ten houses on it.

I would guess the land is half to one acre .... and Christmas has arrived early. The value of the land has increased, what? ... tenfold? More? He even has a ready made buyer. I don't know what a "socially affordable" building plot is worth. At 30% of the value of the finished house, I'd guess £30, 000 t0 £50,000, And he's got 10 or 11 such plots?

Does the developer think he owns Cobdale's plot? It might be worth getting a copy of the latest Land Registry details of the development plot, make sure that his own interests have not got lost in the translation. Probably better to do this sooner than later.

Do the Planners no longer notify the neighbours of land close to a planning application? My Planners in South Wales decided not to notify interested parties when an application was for residential development that adjoined residential property.

John W

span
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Re: New development

Post by span » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:32 am

jonahinoz wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:34 pm
Hi,

Cobdale owns a plot of land, and somebody else has obtained PP to build ten houses on it.

I would guess the land is half to one acre .... and Christmas has arrived early. The value of the land has increased, what? ... tenfold? More? He even has a ready made buyer. I don't know what a "socially affordable" building plot is worth. At 30% of the value of the finished house, I'd guess £30, 000 t0 £50,000, And he's got 10 or 11 such plots?

Does the developer think he owns Cobdale's plot? It might be worth getting a copy of the latest Land Registry details of the development plot, make sure that his own interests have not got lost in the translation. Probably better to do this sooner than later.

Do the Planners no longer notify the neighbours of land close to a planning application? My Planners in South Wales decided not to notify interested parties when an application was for residential development that adjoined residential property.

John W
This seems logical to me.

Even better if the developer needs this plot to make his overall development viable... Access, vision lines, wh'ev.

It may be time to cash in.

pilman
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Re: New development

Post by pilman » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:51 am

The planning application that will have been posted on the Council's Planning web-site will have an Ownership Certificate included on the application form.

When the Applicant does not own all the land included in the application then notice has to be served on all the land-owners other than the Applicant.

That is a legal requirement of the planning system, so looking on the web-site by typing in the address of the land applied for should allow confirmation of what was stated when the application was made.

If Cobdale is registered owner of land then there would have been no reason why he was not served with such a notice.
Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development Procedure) Order 1995

NOTICE UNDER ARTICLE 6

APPLICATION FOR PLANNING PERMISSION

Proposed Development of land at Somewhere

Property number or name:
Land to the rear of Somewhere In England


Take notice that application is being made by John Smith Developments of High Road Bookham for planning permission for a change of use from B8 storage to C3 residential by conversion of the existing single storey warehouse into a three bedroom dwelling.

Local Planning Authority to whom the application is being submitted is
Central Bedfordshire Council, Priory House, Monks Walk, Chicksands Shefford SG17 5TQ

Any owner of the land or tenant who wishes to make representations about this application, should write to the Council within 21 days of the date of this notice:
Now that planning permission has been granted for development of land that included Cobdale's land in the area shown on the application plan, that does not give the Development Company any legal right to enter on to the land owned by Cobdale.

All that has now happened is that the value of Cobdale's land has been increased quite considerably should he chose to offer to sell the land.

Agricultural land is now selling for about £10K per acre, Paddock land at about £25K per acres and prime residential land for about £1 million an acre.
The value of Social Housing land is not a high as prime residential land, but is certainly worth considerably more than what Cobdale paid to acquire the land used to graze horses.

The logical thing to do is to establish what price will be offered for land that can accommodate 10 social houses and then calculate how much grazing land could be bought for that price in another location. It ought to mean that a parcel of large land currently in agricultural use could be bought and still leave a reasonable sum of money to erect stables and such necessary requirements on what is now bare agricultural land.

Personally I would consider this a great opportunity to benefit from a successful planning permission that had cost me nothing at all.

Now Cobdale is able to decide exactly what he wants to do, as he is the only person in charge of the situation.
No one can compel him to move off the land, nor can anyone prevent access over the right of way that may also have been included on the plan that showed the area of land to be developed.

There is also considerable value in preventing the development as shown on the plans granted planning permission, especially if the roads and paths were shown on part of Cobdale's land.

If he wants to continue to keep horses on his land after the other houses are erected on the adjacent land that is what can happen.

As a planning consultant I would have been completely negligent if I had ever made a planning application that included other people's land if I had not already negotiated option agreements to buy the land at an agreed price if planning was granted for development that included such land in the ownership of different people.
That is standard practice in those circumstances, so I can't believe that this planning application was made by someone not knowing that all of the land was not already available to the applicant.

A glass half full guy would think that this was a great opportunity to benefit from someone else's error.
A glass half empty guy would be worrying about losing their land.

Cobdale now has to decide which he is.

jonahinoz
Posts: 1547
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Re: New development

Post by jonahinoz » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:48 pm

A glass half full guy would think that this was a great opportunity to benefit from someone else's error.
A glass half empty guy would be worrying about losing their land.


Hi Pillman,

I don't go with either of the above statemts. Whether the glass is half full or half empty is irrelevent ...
... at that moment in time, the glass is too big.

I'll get my coat. 8)

John W

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