Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

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GIGI
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Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

Post by GIGI » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:27 pm

Good Afternoon

Can anybody give their insight on the letter below received from the Housing Association (Shared Ownership)? Unfortunately, my husband did not think he needed planning permission when he started building the outhouse in the rear garden. We will be applying to our local council retrospectively. We were also a bit confused, as the developer’s site plan indicated that there was already an outhouse in this location.

They stated in their letter that we also required consent from the developer…we were not told this when we made the application with the Housing Association. Their objection is the appearance of the outhouse which is far from finished (missing cladding and roof) and unless you are a looking from an upstairs window, you can’t see what it looks like as most of the shed is hidden by brick wall fence at the back and at the side of the garden? Any advice?

Just to clarify the outhouse is a modern shed, see sample photo…. (husband wants to put his trophies in here along with his tools etc..)

Image

“Further to my letter dated 19th October 2018 in which I granted retrospective consent for a garden shed.

We have been approached by Developer who has advise that they have received complaints from other residents of the estate about the appearance of the shed. I am advised that the objection is the appearance does not conform to the traditional design for a shed.

Developer have pointed out that the location of the shed will mean the structure must have planning permission because it is located next to a road. They also state that you need their consent as the developer. If you have already obtained these permissions can you please provide a copy for our records.

If you do not have the permission then I must instruct you to remove the structure that you have already constructed and make a planning application to the local authority. I must make you aware that there may be a charge for such an application.

The lease sets out that you must have written permission from Housing Association before making a planning application, please use my letter dated 19th October 2018 as consent under clause xx of the lease.

If you have planning permission or are successful in making an application then I will approach developer for their consent.

I apologise that this was not identified when you made your application but now that we are aware of this issue we must insist that you adhere to the lease which requires you to obtain relevant permissions from the relevant local authorities.”


Thank you

mr sheen
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Re: Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

Post by mr sheen » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:37 pm

Reference to your deeds will give details of restrictive covenants that govern the agreement you made with developer which probably includes an agreement to seek permission from developer for any changes, additions etc to the building.

Shared ownership means that you need to consult with the other owner before carrying out any works on a property that you only own part of.

You now know that planning application is required. Before embarking upon any development, it is best to check the rules in a particular area since ignorance of the rules is no defence.

The letter instructs you to adhere to the terms in the relevant documents, which you can do by seeking planning permission and the other permissions required.

It covers a lot of the garden so it may exceed permitted rights or all permitted rights may have been revoked via the agreements. It is a small garden so a building (however you want to describe it :? ) takes up a large amount of garden and neighbours may complain about the size and appearance. The planning department will determine if it is acceptable or not.

despair
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Re: Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

Post by despair » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:26 am

Thats a large structure which looks tight to all fences and exceeds the fence heights so it can be seen by any neighbour i am not surprised planning etc are not happy

pcb1962
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Re: Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

Post by pcb1962 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:09 pm

despair wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:26 am
Thats a large structure which looks tight to all fences and exceeds the fence heights so it can be seen by any neighbour i am not surprised planning etc are not happy
It doesn't look any larger than the shed next door

MacadamB53
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Re: Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

Post by MacadamB53 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:30 pm

Hi GIGI,

They also state that you need their consent as the developer.

anyone can’t make such statements, but is it based on anything?

please elaborate.

kind regards, Mac

GIGI
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Re: Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

Post by GIGI » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:29 pm

Thank you for all your replies. The photo on my original post was just an example of the type of outhouse my husband is building - our outhouse measurements are:

Maximum height of 2.5m
3.8 x 2.58m (WxD)

Photo of the actual outhouse below:

Image

https://ibb.co/XjyTjgd

As you can see most of the outhouse is hidden from view (unless you are looking out of a top window) our immediate neighbour doesn’t have a problem with it.
Last edited by GIGI on Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GIGI
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Re: Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

Post by GIGI » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:36 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:30 pm
Hi GIGI,

They also state that you need their consent as the developer.

anyone can’t make such statements, but is it based on anything?

please elaborate.

kind regards, Mac
Hi Mac

I’ve checked the HA lease and I can’t find anything that mentions the developers.

I’m trying to get hold of the HA person who wrote the letter so he can point me to the right documentation.

Hopefully, they’ll get back to me tomorrow.

Kind regards

GiGi

mugwump
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Re: Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

Post by mugwump » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:32 am

GIGI wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:29 pm
Thank you for all your replies. The photo on my original post was just an example of the type of outhouse my husband is building - our outhouse measurements are:

Maximum height of 2.5m
3.8 x 2.58m (WxD)

Photo of the actual outhouse below:

Image

https://ibb.co/XjyTjgd

As you can see most of the outhouse is hidden from view (unless you are looking out of a top window) our immediate neighbour doesn’t have a problem with it.
TBH I can see why it hasn't gone down well. It's not so much the neighbour but more the view from anywhere else on the roadways.

MacadamB53
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Re: Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

Post by MacadamB53 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:30 am

GIGI wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:29 pm
Thank you for all your replies. The photo on my original post was just an example of the type of outhouse my husband is building - our outhouse measurements are:

Maximum height of 2.5m
3.8 x 2.58m (WxD)

Photo of the actual outhouse below:

Image

https://ibb.co/XjyTjgd

As you can see most of the outhouse is hidden from view (unless you are looking out of a top window) our immediate neighbour doesn’t have a problem with it.
assuming 1. that’s not your front garden 2. that you live in England or Wales and 3. permitted development isn’t restricted for your property:

that outbuilding has already been granted planning permission by Part 1, Class E of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015 or the equivalent for Wales - ie it qualifies as ‘Permitted Development’ and your hubby was correct.

now all we need to sort out is why the developer is asserting you need their consent - if this is because they believe it requires planning permission? or are they stating you need to seek their consent regardless?

kind regards, Mac

pilman
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Re: Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

Post by pilman » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:16 pm

There may be two title for this property, if the freehold title is still held by the developer and the leasehold title held by the Housing Association.

That could be why there are separate restrictive covenants in play.

One could be in the freehold title stating that no development can take place on the developer's estate without prior permission and one could be in the lease saying much the same about the shared ownership property.

As you have already been told planning permission has been granted by the Government so that Planning matters cannot be argued about. You already have planning permission.

It is now a matter of whether under civil law either the developer or the Housing Association would want to pursue a claim that you are in breach of a restrictive covenant.

Without seeing the words used in each of the two titles that is a difficult question to answer.

I assume you have a copy of the lease so that it can be read by you, but you can also obtain a copy of the register of title for the freehold land if you use the official Land Registry web-site and pay £3 using a credit or debit card.
The official Land Registry site is found here, because looking in Google under Land Registry Search, the first group of replies are all private companies who charge a lot more than ordering direct from Land Registry.

https://www.gov.uk/search-property-info ... d-registry

If the restrictive covenants are not listed in the Register, which is an A4 size document, there is sometimes a mention of an original transfer where it is stated that there is a "COPY FILED"
That can then be obtained using a postal application by downloading a form OC2 from Land Registry web-site and sending the completed form with a cheque for £7 to Land Registry Citizens Centre, PO Box 74 Gloucester GL14 9BB.

Once you have seen all the necessary deeds then you will know whether the letter from the Housing Association carries as much weight as you may think it does.

One other thing you need to consider is the fact that the immediate neighbour has a garden shed that can be seen in the photo you posted. Did they obtain permission from the developer and the Housing Association if that property is also a shared ownership property.

If not, then you have a good reason to write back to the HA and ask why you are being discriminated against, because whatever size a garden shed is if it can be erected under permitted development rights then it is no different to the one you are erecting under permitted development rights.
The maximum height of an out-building located within 2 metres of a boundary is 2.5 metres, so as long as that is the maximum height of the modern shed your husband is erecting then it is no different in law to the pitched roof shed next door.

The word to be used in any correspondence with the HA is "precedent" There is a precedent because other properties on the estate have erected out-buildings and seemingly no one has been sued for breach of covenant.

GIGI
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Re: Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

Post by GIGI » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:06 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:30 am
GIGI wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:29 pm
Thank you for all your replies. The photo on my original post was just an example of the type of outhouse my husband is building - our outhouse measurements are:

Maximum height of 2.5m
3.8 x 2.58m (WxD)

Photo of the actual outhouse below:

Image

https://ibb.co/XjyTjgd

As you can see most of the outhouse is hidden from view (unless you are looking out of a top window) our immediate neighbour doesn’t have a problem with it.
assuming 1. that’s not your front garden 2. that you live in England or Wales and 3. permitted development isn’t restricted for your property:

that outbuilding has already been granted planning permission by Part 1, Class E of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015 or the equivalent for Wales - ie it qualifies as ‘Permitted Development’ and your hubby was correct.

now all we need to sort out is why the developer is asserting you need their consent - if this is because they believe it requires planning permission? or are they stating you need to seek their consent regardless?

kind regards, Mac
Hi Mac

It is our rear garden and we do live in England...

On the HA letter they say we need planning permission
Developer have pointed out that the location of the shed will mean the structure must have planning permission because it is located next to a road.
I'm still waiting to hear back from the local council.

I believe they are saying we need both their consent and planning permission.

I'm currently trying to get hold of the HA so they can point me to the right documentation...


Kind regards

GiGi

GIGI
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Re: Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

Post by GIGI » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:26 pm

pilman wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:16 pm
There may be two title for this property, if the freehold title is still held by the developer and the leasehold title held by the Housing Association.

That could be why there are separate restrictive covenants in play.

One could be in the freehold title stating that no development can take place on the developer's estate without prior permission and one could be in the lease saying much the same about the shared ownership property.

As you have already been told planning permission has been granted by the Government so that Planning matters cannot be argued about. You already have planning permission.

It is now a matter of whether under civil law either the developer or the Housing Association would want to pursue a claim that you are in breach of a restrictive covenant.

Without seeing the words used in each of the two titles that is a difficult question to answer.

I assume you have a copy of the lease so that it can be read by you, but you can also obtain a copy of the register of title for the freehold land if you use the official Land Registry web-site and pay £3 using a credit or debit card.
The official Land Registry site is found here, because looking in Google under Land Registry Search, the first group of replies are all private companies who charge a lot more than ordering direct from Land Registry.

https://www.gov.uk/search-property-info ... d-registry

If the restrictive covenants are not listed in the Register, which is an A4 size document, there is sometimes a mention of an original transfer where it is stated that there is a "COPY FILED"
That can then be obtained using a postal application by downloading a form OC2 from Land Registry web-site and sending the completed form with a cheque for £7 to Land Registry Citizens Centre, PO Box 74 Gloucester GL14 9BB.

Once you have seen all the necessary deeds then you will know whether the letter from the Housing Association carries as much weight as you may think it does.

One other thing you need to consider is the fact that the immediate neighbour has a garden shed that can be seen in the photo you posted. Did they obtain permission from the developer and the Housing Association if that property is also a shared ownership property.

If not, then you have a good reason to write back to the HA and ask why you are being discriminated against, because whatever size a garden shed is if it can be erected under permitted development rights then it is no different to the one you are erecting under permitted development rights.
The maximum height of an out-building located within 2 metres of a boundary is 2.5 metres, so as long as that is the maximum height of the modern shed your husband is erecting then it is no different in law to the pitched roof shed next door.

The word to be used in any correspondence with the HA is "precedent" There is a precedent because other properties on the estate have erected out-buildings and seemingly no one has been sued for breach of covenant.
Yes, we do have a copy of the lease and I can’t see that it mentions anything about asking permission from the developer. Of course it does state that need permission from the HA – which they did grant but of course they are now saying we need permission from the developer as well as planning permission.

My question is…is this something we would have been expected to know or is this something the HA should had advise us when we made the planning application with them?

Thanks for the link, I'll will purchase a copy of the freehold title.
If not, then you have a good reason to write back to the HA and ask why you are being discriminated against, because whatever size a garden shed is if it can be erected under permitted development rights then it is no different to the one you are erecting under permitted development rights.
The maximum height of an out-building located within 2 metres of a boundary is 2.5 metres, so as long as that is the maximum height of the modern shed your husband is erecting then it is no different in law to the pitched roof shed next door.
Our next door neighbour is also a shared ownership. They have a shed in the rear and a shed at the front of the house, built on top of one of their parking spaces. We did ask them if they had obtain permission and they said they had not.

Kind regards

Gigi

ukmicky
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Re: Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

Post by ukmicky » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:12 pm

Many new builds,especially those in estates do not have any permitted development rights as they are removed through conditions imposed under the original development planning application , you need to find out if that is the case with your property.

It’s also possible if conditions were imposed restricting permitted development rights ,different properties on the same estate can be treated differently and have different restrictions
.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

pilman
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Re: Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

Post by pilman » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:48 am

That would be a very unusual occurrence when the whole of an estate has its permitted development rights removed when planning permission was granted.

It can probably be easily verified now that most planning authorities have a web-site that can be searched to see what conditions were imposed when a planning permission was granted.

When someone commented about no building next to a road, that was a misinterpretation of what is not permitted.
(c) any part of the building, enclosure, pool or container would be situated on land forward of a wall forming the principal elevation of the original dwellinghouse;
In simple terms that means that you cannot erect a building in front of the house.

The fact that your neighbour already did that is definitely something to bear in mind if no action has been taken by the HA, the developer or the local planning authority.
They have a shed in the rear and a shed at the front of the house, built on top of one of their parking spaces.
I'm still waiting to hear back from the local council.
I believe they are saying we need both their consent and planning permission.
You need to understand that you do not need planning permission from the Local Planning Authority, because permission was granted by the Government under the Permitted Development rights set out in Part 1, Class E of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015, so there is no need to contact your council's planning department.

You just need to tell the HA that is the current situation and you cannot agree that they can compel you to make a separate planning application to the local council's planning department.

liveinpeace
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Re: Outhouse - Shared Ownership property

Post by liveinpeace » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:29 am

is it me or do others find the description of this building as an outhouse a bit of an understatement, I would say it is more of a summer house, it would be the grandest outhouse I have ever seen, the term outhouse to me congers up very scary trips to a dark spider ridden privy in the night.

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