Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

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Permitbay
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Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by Permitbay » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:24 pm

We no longer wish to be in a permit parking scheme which we agreed to approx 15 years ago. The land the bays were marked on is wholly owned by us and is part of an unadopted road. The bays needed remarking and we disputed that action because the permit zone is hardly ever policed and so parents from the local school park there without penalty.

We gave the council notice that we wanted out of the scheme but they balloted neighbours (some of whom had never been in the scheme in the first place because they were allowed to opt out due to their frontages being private) and the school and three additional houses not actually on the street but with a window looking onto to it and it was voted 10-4 in favour.

The ownership of the land is documented at the Land Registry and the council have a copy of that document.

We have asked that they redraw the TRO to remove our frontage form the scheme, they have ignored this request and gone ahead with the remarking exercise and also during that process they removed and disposed of four cones from our property (which we owned) without our permission.

Against our objections, the council have now remarked bays all across our frontage and an H bar across the frontage of our garage which fronts the road.

The council say we cannot unilaterally opt out of the permit scheme and that despite it being our land they do not need our permission to mark out permit parking bays. They have offered no proof of that contention.

We are now at the point of engaging a solicitor to fight this on our behalf.

Can anyone help with any legal pointers or legal publications we can use to bolster our case? Happy to answers any queries.

mr sheen
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by mr sheen » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:01 pm

Your starting position is the agreement entered into 15 years ago...did it provide for reviews? What was granted?
If an open-ended agreement was entered into with no review dates and granting management of the parking to the council then it is likely that the council can manage the parking as they wish and mark spaces as they wish etc.

If you want to post a copy of the agreement then contributors here will pass comment on its content.

If it is clear from the deed that you are on a loser then it is unlikley that there wil be precedents that would support your position since they would probably support the opposing position.

Permitbay
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by Permitbay » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:31 pm

Thank you for your reply.

Neither ourselves nor the council have any copies of the original agreement. However, it was a simple yes/no vote and we signed nothing individually. All documentation relating to it has been destroyed by the council according to an FOI.

For the last two years, the scheme has not been in operation on our side of the road as the road markings and signage were not compliant due to age/removal. Residents on the other side were still paying for permits, residents on this side were not. The TRO was never amended or rescinded during this period it simply was not enforced. We were also told that elements of it were never compliant as no H bars were marked across drives/garages.

In December a resident on the other side had an issue with the council and they also brought up this issue. A letter was sent out to all residents (and to those who live further up the road who had never been in the original scheme as that portion voted against it) and the vote was 10 - 4 in favour. At that point, we informed the council that we wanted to unilaterally opt out. They said we couldn't do that and that they intended to remark the bays as they did not need our permission despite the fact that they acknowledged that we own the land. We sent a very strongly ( but politely worded) letter and their legal department said they would get back to us.

I returned home from work on Monday and the remarking had all been done. Additionally, the signage operatives had removed four personally owned parking cones from our property without permission. So we feel they have committed; Trespass, Theft and Criminal Damage to our property.

mr sheen
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by mr sheen » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:41 pm

It appears that you are merely participating in a permit parking system on highway...if so the council are in control and do not need your permission to do anything on highway designated land even if you 'own' it. More info is needed if I am misinterpreting the scenario.

To withdraw from the system, you could just stop using the parking spaces. Do you pay for the scheme? If so, you could just inform them that you no longer want a permit, return the permit and don't pay any more. You will not be able to exhibit any control over the land if it is designated highway.

Permitbay
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by Permitbay » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:43 pm

Thanks for your response.

Can an unadopted road be designated highway when we pay for maintenance of pavements and do not have any amenities on this side of the road?

If it can, then surely only markings which are necessary for the passage of traffic can be insisted upon and not permit parking bays which allow parking to all who have a permit for that area.

Should the landowner not have say in who is permitted to park on their land regardless of arbitrary designation, a scheme which is designed to collect revenue, but not actually deliver the service for which they are being paid?

We could stop using the spaces and park our cars completely on the pavement which we paid for in its entirety, but that would obstruct the passage of people, prams, etc, so is not something we would do lightly. However, it could be done.

MacadamB53
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by MacadamB53 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:19 pm

Hi Permitbay,

a highway is a route over which the public have a right to pass and repass.

to keep this simple, there’s two types of highways - adopted and unadopted.

adopted means the LA maintain (keep in useable condition) at public expense.

unadopted means the LA don’t maintain.

who owns the land is not relevant.

hope that clears that up.

next - ordinarily, parking on a highway is technically unlawful.

to get round this, LAs have been given the powers to create Traffic Regulation Orders.

in your situation, there must be an associated TRO for the scheme?

kind regards, Mac

Permitbay
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by Permitbay » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:35 am

Thank you.

The whole of the Highway in front of our property is unadopted. It is also on our deeds that we own the land to the centre line of the highway and from that point, it is adopted.

There is a TRO for the scheme which has lain dormant for over 2 years, it has now been revived and the road markings have been redone. We no longer want to be in the scheme nor to have the markings in front of our house because put simply, it is never policed and is just a money making scheme for the council as residents need to buy permits to park.

I have it in writing from the council that they only have the resources to police it once every 3 weeks and not at any specific time of day. The issues arise at 8.45am (before the operatives begin work) and 3.30pm as we have a school on the same road. We have minor problems for 15 mins either end of the school day which doesn't bother me because I am either off work so my car is already parked up, or in work and they have all gone before I get home.

We have asked for the TRO to be redrawn to remove our frontage from the scheme.

Collaborate
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by Collaborate » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:15 am

In the city where I live there is a large municipal park that has an (until recently) unadopted road ringing it. Didn't stop the LA placing parking restrictions on it for many years.

Being unadopted simply relates to maintenance costs. It's the public rights of access that define what rights the LA has.

The Road Traffic Regulation act 1984 is what governs the powers of the LA. That Act does not define what a road is. For that, you have to look at other legislation.

A quick search shows up a later Act of Parliament (Road Traffic Act 1988) which defines a road as
in relation to England and Wales, means any highway and any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes,
(s192(1)).

I've tried to look for definitions in earlier Acts but there's only so much time in the day that I can spend on stuff like this so you'd need to look for yourself, but I'd be staggered if earlier definitions were materially different.

mr sheen
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by mr sheen » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:13 pm

Ownership of 'roadways' to the middle is the norm but the homeowner has zero control over the roads since once it is a designated highway the highways authorities have full control over it.

You can ask nicely for the area to be 'policed' but the managing authority has the right to manage the highways as they see fit and within their budgets. This is all under their control, none of it is under your control. There is nothing you can do, other than ask nicely, to have any say in what happens to 'highways'.

If you don't want to park there that is your choice but you cannot police who parks there since it is 'highway' and you have no control over it. It's just like living on any street where anyone can park in front of your property.

Permitbay
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by Permitbay » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:16 pm

Thank you, we are not disputing the rights of the council to place permit parking restrictions on the road. If other neighbours voted in favour, despite it being a waste of money as it is not regularly policed ( they are unaware of those details as I received them via an FOI) then I have no objection to that.

However, where is it stated that everyone must be in such a scheme if they do not want to be, and it is on their own land? The council have been repeatedly asked to provide this information but have failed to do so.

The other end of the road opted out as they own the land over which cars, etc, pass to reach their own properties and over which deliveries etc are made( it is a cul de sac) and the council allowed that, seemingly without issue.

The criteria t be met for such a scheme ( which is published on the council website) is not met for this road, yet the council want the scheme to remain in place so that they get the revenue from permits.

arborlad
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by arborlad » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:32 pm

Permitbay wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:31 pm
So we feel they have committed; Trespass, Theft and Criminal Damage to our property.



Trespass? - forget it.

Criminal Damage? - forget it.

Theft? - what proof do you have?...............any contractor doing this type of work will have their own cones, easy to get mixed up, what have you done to get them returned? - forget it.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

Permitbay
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by Permitbay » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:40 pm

With regard to the theft issue, a neighbour saw them remove the cones.

mr sheen
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by mr sheen » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:50 pm

The roadway has rights of way over it and therefore any obstruction to the passing and repassing of vehicles that you place on it can be physically removed legitimately. You would be well advised not to place items on the roadway otherwise you may find the council remove them and then charge you for having to remove them.

The police deal with theft by a specific identified person. If you want to make a complaint against an identified person for theft then contact the police. Unfortunately for you, you may find that if/when the police contact the council the council are in fact looking for the person who obstructed the roadway with the cones and you have just admitted that you own the cones and obstructed the roadway so they can send you the bill for the work carried out by the council to remove them and you will be required to collect them. No theft occurred.

The roadway is not your concern and you have no say in it.....the sooner you accept this the sooner you can move on and enjoy life.

Permitbay
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by Permitbay » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:57 pm

The cones were not on the roadway at the time they were removed.

mr sheen
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by mr sheen » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:16 pm

You are at liberty to complain to the police or the council about the removal of the 4 cones which presumably you have receipts for since cones are usually owned by councils etc.

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