How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

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mr sheen
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by mr sheen » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:03 pm

Since you trivialise taking off a neighbour’s roof without their permission...I’m out!

Holst2
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Holst2 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:30 am

Okay, thanks for your help. Does anybody else have any suggestions??

Holst2
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Holst2 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:38 am

Okay, thanks for your help. Sorry if you think I am trivilaising the problem. I dont see it as trivial at all. Does anybody else have any suggestions??

As I said, the need for us to replace the flat roof before neighbour re-tiled his roof was discussed with them 18 months ago. We exchanged letters that detailed the agreement. An agreement in writing is a contract right??

Then the neighbour went back on his word and replaced his tiles before I could have the flat roof replaced, thus causing all the trouble. If I now lay new felt he wants me to restore his roof to 'as new' state.

However as he went back on his WRITTEN word hes clearly in breach of contract so surely the court would find in my favour??

MacadamB53
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by MacadamB53 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:11 am

Holst2 wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:30 am
Okay, thanks for your help. Does anybody else have any suggestions??
accepting that we’ve not seen how bad the damage is, I’d be looking to repair the roof rather than replace it - why is this being ruled out?

FilthWizzard
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by FilthWizzard » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:39 am

mr sheen wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:58 pm
Holst2 wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:22 am
Sorry if I seem defensive but nobody seems to understand that it is technically impossible to fix my part of the shared roof without going over the boundary. I can't just butt join the felt on the flat roof as water will get in there.

I have to take the felt right across and under neighbours tiles. My roofer tells me that he would have to remove the bottom row of tiles to do this. He would then have to re-fix the tiles with hooks (tingles?) because the tiles can't be re-nailed without removing the overlying rows as well. But my neighbour will not allow this. He says he wants them re-nailed which means stripping the whole of the side of his tiled roof up to the ridge and re-nailing his tiles from the bottom up. That is going to cost £1600 extra!! That's the problem!! Surely there is something I can do??
You cannot touch a neighbour’s property without his consent. He has offered his consent subject to making good his property and this is entirely reasonable.
If you can’t repair your roof without doing his then you have no choice but to get his agreement to replace it all or leave/patch the leak.

That is the situation.

Not sure what grounds the previous poster is suggesting that this could go to small claims court since no one can forcefully carry out works on a neighbouring property and then claim back the cost. In fact if you touch his roof without coming to an agreement he could call the police for criminal damage and you may be arrested. There is no scenario that I can think of that would enable you to replace the whole roof and claim back money that the neighbour hasn’t agreed to....but happy to hear how the previous poster thinks this could play out in small claims that would lead to the neighbour being forced to pay a penny he hasn’t agreed to.
I have no idea on what grounds. I just state this because there have been posts here that suggest they have fixed a shared structure and claimed back half the costs via small claims court. As I indicated, this wouldn't seem to fit with the rules as I understand them but courts can take strange positions. I did point out that such an approach would be unlikely to benefit the OP.

FilthWizzard
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by FilthWizzard » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:50 am

OP, looking at the positioning diagram it would seem to me it may be possible to put a pitched roof over the top of the flat roof with some guttering to deal with the run off. I am not a builder though. I'm thinking of a half pitch running off to the left with a short wall along the border with the neighbour. It wouldn't have to be very tall (a tall side would be a problem for the chimneys I suspect).

Personally, I'd discuss the possibility with the builder. It will cost, but it will end the problem for you for good and you'd get a nicer roof that handles water better. The day the neighbour needs to fix that small bit of flat roof on his side of the boundary he will have a very expensive job though, as he would have to remove your roof, replace the flat roof and then put your roof back. It would reverse the problem and amplify the costs significantly. The neighbour may want to address the issue before the pitched roof goes up, so I'd discuss it with them first and give them the option before they are locked in to significant future expense.

Talk it over with your builder. He is the guy with the practical knowledge to see how this might work. I'm only going of a basic line drawing and little building knowledge. I can only point out what would occur to me to explore with an experienced tradesman.

Clifford Pope
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Clifford Pope » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:15 pm

I've got the picture now - so the water running off his tiled roof is entirely landlocked by (his ?) chimney, and can only escape by running across your roof?
That seems a completely barmy set-up, and with the benefit of wise hindsight seems almost designed to cause conflict in the future. I suppose his water has acquired a kind easement through unopposed use over x years. It's a pity there isn't a kind of party-roof rule to regulate these things.

I think all you can do is repair or replace your side, and make the best bodge you can along the join. Is the felt glued to the roof, or could you slide new felt under his felt having cut a straight line along the boundary?

ukmicky
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by ukmicky » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:33 pm

Party structure notice under the party wall Act.


Your roof may be deemed to be a party structure as the whole roof is one structure and your side and his side is structurally joined ,every part is dependant on the whole and is basically one roof .

If it is a party structure and you would need advice to find out for sure and the whole roof requires repairing as yours can’t be repaired properly without doing the whole roof as you both would responsible for the whole roof he would be legally responsible for his share of the cost depending on how much of the roof is on his side. 30 % on his side he pays 30% of the cost .

If it is a party structure he would also be responsible for an extra share as his side drains over your side which could in theory raise his burden up to 50 percent.

A party wall surveyor will be needed and if need be a part structure notice sent Most party wall surveyors will give you free advice.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

Holst2
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Holst2 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:46 pm

MacadamB53 wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:11 am
accepting that we’ve not seen how bad the damage is, I’d be looking to repair the roof rather than replace it - why is this being ruled out?
It has been repaired may times over already. I'd be patching over patches.

Clifford Pope and FilthWizzard -- Not sure a pitched roof would be practicable. Might require planning permission and I probably haven't got enough money to do it anyway. Don't know how else to make a join at the boundary line.

ukmicky -- Thanks for that idea. I thought the Party Wall Act didn;t impose a financial burden on the person that received notice. My understanding its that the act is there to facilitate work by one party but can't force the other party to contribute to the costs. There is nothing in my deeds to say anything about this. True his water does drain via my side so I suppose he as acquired a right to do this over 60+ years, but does it give him any more rights?? Anyway, isn't it expensive to employ a Party Wall surveyor if I issued notice?? May be more expensive than the extra £1600 (or £800 if I'm successful) for re-tiling his pitched roof?? Not sure what to do. I will look at the act again. Thanks.

PS. What about the issue of breach of contract as my neighbour agreed we should have the flat roof done first then went ahead and re-tiled his pitched roof before I could get my flat roof done? I have that agreement in writing!!

ukmicky
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by ukmicky » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:18 pm

Holst2 wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:46 pm
MacadamB53 wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:11 am
accepting that we’ve not seen how bad the damage is, I’d be looking to repair the roof rather than replace it - why is this being ruled out?
It has been repaired may times over already. I'd be patching over patches.

Clifford Pope and FilthWizzard -- Not sure a pitched roof would be practicable. Might require planning permission and I probably haven't got enough money to do it anyway. Don't know how else to make a join at the boundary line.

ukmicky -- Thanks for that idea. I thought the Party Wall Act didn;t impose a financial burden on the person that received notice. My understanding its that the act is there to facilitate work by one party but can't force the other party to contribute to the costs. There is nothing in my deeds to say anything about this. True his water does drain via my side so I suppose he as acquired a right to do this over 60+ years, but does it give him any more rights?? Anyway, isn't it expensive to employ a Party Wall surveyor if I issued notice?? May be more expensive than the extra £1600 (or £800 if I'm successful) for re-tiling his pitched roof?? Not sure what to do. I will look at the act again. Thanks.

PS. What about the issue of breach of contract as my neighbour agreed we should have the flat roof done first then went ahead and re-tiled his pitched roof before I could get my flat roof done? I have that agreement in writing!!
You are not performing work that benefits only you.

If it’s a shared structure the law deems the work to benefit him as well even though currently he has no leak because if the part over your side is allowed to deteriorate further if would sooner or later affect the whole structure. If it’s a shared structure which in in need of repair all owners are responsible for its repair. How the cost is shared is dependant on who gains what benefit from the roof . He benefits less as it covers less of his property but he also benefits from draining his water over the part not covering his property so that will increase his burden .Surveyor costs will also be apportioned the same way.


Using the party wall act is meant to be used if it’s a party structure and will protect all parties and prevent arguments as the surveyors will work out everything between them and the work will become the responsibility of both you . However it will increase costs and if agreement can be had between yourselves that protects both of you without using surveyors obviously that will be the better way to proceed.

If a row of tiles are removed the same tiles will go back on so the cost involved is only the time taken to remove them and then put them back on afterwards with maybe a small amount of cement if that’s how the have sealed the join, 20 mins £20:00

If you want to use the party wall act you need advice first from a party wall surveyor to check it is covered under the act. Most will give that advice free. If you went ahead the surveyor will send the notices
Last edited by ukmicky on Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

ukmicky
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by ukmicky » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:30 pm

I doubt you have a contract which fulfils the conditions for a contract under contract law. You may only have an agreement which may or may not be enforceable under equity.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

arborlad
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by arborlad » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:06 pm

Holst2 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:41 pm
Suppose I could make it spring a leak.


Hmm - hope you're not being serious!
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

Clifford Pope
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Clifford Pope » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:26 am

arborlad wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:06 pm
Holst2 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:41 pm
Suppose I could make it spring a leak.


Hmm - hope you're not being serious!

Serious or not, it could quite easily happen by accident.
If the best that can be achieved without any kind of sensible agreement is that the OP simply makes a straight cut along the boundary line and lays new felt up to that line, then the sealant applied over the join will inevitably be a potential weakness.
Also, whereas water draining from the OP's roof will run down along the line of the seam, water from the neighbour's side will have to cross the seam at right angles. Anyone who has been watching recent flooding events in detail will be aware of water's incedible power to lift a good deal heavier than roofing felt if it finds a weak spot.

ukmicky
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by ukmicky » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:15 pm

Don’t create a leak . Water has a tendency to find its own way,and the chances are any leak on his side will also star5 to affect your side and could have an adverse impact on the actual roof structure.

Looking at your pictures , the felt join under the tiles is a very minor job and the amount of roof on the neighbours side is also tiny . I would just crack on and perform the work.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

Holst2
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Holst2 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:19 pm

ukmicky wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:15 pm
Looking at your pictures , the felt join under the tiles is a very minor job and the amount of roof on the neighbours side is also tiny . I would just crack on and perform the work.
Unfortunately, it is not minor. My neighbour says his tiles are nailed and wants the same permanent fixings reinstated after my roofer lifts his tiles. All three roofers have looked at this and say they can only re-nail the bottom row if the second row is removed, and to re-nail the second row, the third row has to come off etc. etc. - all the way up to the ridge. The middle price quoted for this is £1600.

Have just spoken to my neighbour, who came back on Tuesday night. It turns out he is a solicitor. I thought he was an estate agent but he seems to know what he is talking about and dug out a big file of law papers including the Party Wall Act. He says it would be much cheaper for me to pay for everything outright because if I used the PWA, my saving (by him paying what he calls a minimal three-seventeenths share) would be dwarfed by the extra costs of three surveyors. He also showed me section 7(2) of the act regarding the compensation I would have to pay if I didn't put his tiled roof back to its original state. He also says that if 'tinker' with his roof it will invalidate the 20 year warranty his roofers have given him and he would want compensation for that as, in order to reinstate the warranty he would have to get the work certified. I have read the PWA over and over and it looks plain to me. What do you think?

As I said before it looks like he's got me over a barrell. Despicable thing is he obviously has plenty of money to pay his share even if he has to pay towards a surveyor, but he wants to lumber me with all the costs.

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