How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

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FilthWizzard
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by FilthWizzard » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:28 pm

OK, one other idea. If you divide the roof just a little on your side of the boundary line (let's say an inch), the neighbour can have no say on how you divide it and what manner of repair you make. So long as you don't touch his side of the boundary you should be fine. That is unless he wins a case to say you can't touch any of your side without his consent (like a shared fence). Whilst that may technically be correct, I struggle to believe any court would effectively rule that you cannot fix your roof at all without his say so. If I were advising the neighbour I would suggest he doesn't try that on at court as he may well end up with a decision against him. At best he would win damages, and since his side would not have been touched that would amount to zero or thereabouts.

Holst2
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Holst2 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:34 pm

ukmicky wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:30 pm
I doubt you have a contract which fulfils the conditions for a contract under contract law. You may only have an agreement which may or may not be enforceable under equity.
Not sure what you mean by 'enforceable under equity'. It's written in an exchange of letters.

Holst2
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Holst2 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:37 pm

FilthWizzard wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:28 pm
OK, one other idea. If you divide the roof just a little on your side of the boundary line (let's say an inch), the neighbour can have no say on how you divide it and what manner of repair you make. So long as you don't touch his side of the boundary you should be fine. That is unless he wins a case to say you can't touch any of your side without his consent (like a shared fence). Whilst that may technically be correct, I struggle to believe any court would effectively rule that you cannot fix your roof at all without his say so. If I were advising the neighbour I would suggest he doesn't try that on at court as he may well end up with a decision against him. At best he would win damages, and since his side would not have been touched that would amount to zero or thereabouts.
Hes not saying I need his say so to fix the roof. He has explicitly given his permission provided that:

a) I pay for it all and
b) his tiled roof is reinstated to its current condition.

Both are going to cost me more money than I think it is fair for me to pay!! Hes got plenty of money to pay his share!!

FilthWizzard
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by FilthWizzard » Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:27 pm

Yes, I get that, however a ruling that you can only fix the roof on your neighbour's terms is effectively saying your neighbour has the final say over whether or not you can fix your roof at all. Even if the neighbour is choosing not to prevent you doing so. I doubt the court would give your neighbour that potential power. They may do for a fence, but for a roof?

Another option is to explain to the neighbour that he is making it financially impossible for you to fix your roof. He may not be the sort of person who would see you put in such a fix.

A further option is to fix the roof as you can afford to, and ignore the neighbour. It is not unlawful until a court orders it so. Will the neighbour be able to see how you've done it? Will he climb up a ladder and check? If so, will he take you to court? If he starts to do this, agree to mediation. If he won't accept the fix that the builders believe is perfectly suitable then a court may not grant him much if anything in damages and may not grant him costs since he still has a perfectly serviceable roof and if he was reasonable he would have let you know what he was about to do and given you the option to fix your roof up before he made it hugely more expensive. I know, this is not the nice way to do it, but if you have no choice...

mugwump
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by mugwump » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:11 pm

You first have to find a builder who is willing to open himself to a charge of criminal damage.

ukmicky
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by ukmicky » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:23 pm

Holst2 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:19 pm
ukmicky wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:15 pm
Looking at your pictures , the felt join under the tiles is a very minor job and the amount of roof on the neighbours side is also tiny . I would just crack on and perform the work.
Unfortunately, it is not minor. My neighbour says his tiles are nailed and wants the same permanent fixings reinstated after my roofer lifts his tiles. All three roofers have looked at this and say they can only re-nail the bottom row if the second row is removed, and to re-nail the second row, the third row has to come off etc. etc. - all the way up to the ridge. The middle price quoted for this is £1600.

Have just spoken to my neighbour, who came back on Tuesday night. It turns out he is a solicitor. I thought he was an estate agent but he seems to know what he is talking about and dug out a big file of law papers including the Party Wall Act. He says it would be much cheaper for me to pay for everything outright because if I used the PWA, my saving (by him paying what he calls a minimal three-seventeenths share) would be dwarfed by the extra costs of three surveyors. He also showed me section 7(2) of the act regarding the compensation I would have to pay if I didn't put his tiled roof back to its original state. He also says that if 'tinker' with his roof it will invalidate the 20 year warranty his roofers have given him and he would want compensation for that as, in order to reinstate the warranty he would have to get the work certified. I have read the PWA over and over and it looks plain to me. What do you think?

As I said before it looks like he's got me over a barrell. Despicable thing is he obviously has plenty of money to pay his share even if he has to pay towards a surveyor, but he wants to lumber me with all the costs.

Most people think the party wall act only covers situations where one party wants to perform to their property that has no work benefit to a neighbour but need access to a neighbours property in order to carry out the work .

It also covers situations where work is needed to property where work is required to repair shared structures which benefits both parties and where both parties by law are equally responsible to ensure there work is done. In such situations both parties are equally responsible for the work and the cost of the work. If one party raises the cost by being pig headed.he is also raising the costs borne by himself and there have also been cases where the pig headed person has been forced by the courts to bear more than 50 percent of the costs due to there unreasonable behaviour causing un-necessary costs.

Firstly If you need to lift one or two layers of tiles you do not need to go all the way to the top. The British standard BS 5534 allows the use of clips in situations like this.


As it’s a job both parties are responsible fo4 both parties come to an agreement as to who performs the work.

2) 3 seventeenths share. He seems to be looking at this wrongly which as he is a solicitor which I’m not surprised about. He forgets it’s a party structure and he adrains over all of it and as he drains over all of it he will be equally be responsible for a 50 percent share of the remedial work and therefore 50 percent of any remedial work to his tiled roof. If he is not prepared to pay his fair-share then he will need to prevent the water running off his roof onto your roof . If 5his wen5 to court to the court would give him suc( an option as he dosent get the benifit of draining over the roof like this without accepting the burden.

3 He also forgets as it’s a party structure and If the party wall act was used as it’s a party structure he also becomes equally responsible not just for the work on the roof but also surveyor costs , your and his . Surveyors make decision independant of the person hiring them as they are meant to be professionals , Your surveyor like his can make a decision that goes against what you or he wants as it’s the right thing to do and you and he by law will have to go along with it. A third surveyor is only used if your surveyor and his surveyor can’t agree on something important.

It would make sense in a situation like this for you both to agree on a single surveyor that acts for both of you but if he continues with his 3 seventeenth estimate and you use the party wall act you would probably need.your own surveyors.

Using th3 party wall act will cause more costs but the act is there so nessesary work can’t be prevented from be8ng performed in situations where one party is being unreasonable and in the end unless you both can come to an agreement you may have no choice . Go speak to a surveyor and tell them what you told us and get there advice .




However your trying to go well beyond what is required here and I wouldn’t personally be going anywhere near the tiles or the chimneys. Yes all roofers would prefer to do the whole roof but that is not needed here and there are solutions . As the the flow is from left to right which means there will be no pooling your laughing as all the roofer needs to do is separate the two areas with a termination bar with the correct water cut off mastic 2 to 3 inches in front of the chimneys to allow for drainage past them and on your side he then puts down new material. Any decent flat roofer can seal it at the join if they use the correct materials to make the join.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

Rosenberg
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Rosenberg » Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:45 pm

This thread started off well but the quality of advice now seems to have deteriorated somewhat:
.
FilthWizzard wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:27 pm
... a ruling that you can only fix the roof on your neighbour's terms is effectively saying your neighbour has the final say over whether or not you can fix your roof at all. Even if the neighbour is choosing not to prevent you doing so.
Apparently the neighbour is not claiming this. He is just requiring the OP to restore his property to the state in which the OP found it.
FilthWizzard wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:27 pm
A further option is to fix the roof as you can afford to, and ignore the neighbour. It is not unlawful until a court orders it so.
The court might well order it so!
FilthWizzard wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:27 pm
If he won't accept the fix that the builders believe is perfectly suitable then a court may not grant him much...
The owner paid to have his roof done how he wants it. A court is hardly likely to entertain a principle whereby a builder that has been engaged by a property-owner's neighbour can overrule the wishes and preferences of the property owner.

----------------
ukmicky wrote:If a row of tiles are removed the same tiles will go back on so the cost involved is only the time taken to remove them and then put them back on afterwards with maybe a small amount of cement if that’s how the have sealed the join, 20 mins £20:00
They are the neighbour's tiles, on the neighbour's roof. The OP can't just rip them off and re-attach them cowboy-wise with a dab of cement. What planet are you living on? And just using clips (which the neighbour won't allow anyway) would cost way more than twenty quid.
ukmicky wrote:I would just crack on and perform the work
It's a bit irresponsible to suggest the OP undertakes an illegal course of action. The neighbour's tiles aren't part of the shared structure.
ukmicky wrote:The British standard BS 5534 allows the use of clips in situations like this.
That doesn't mean the neighbour has to accept the use of clips on his property. Presumably he paid to have the tiles fixed properly. He has a right not to have his property degraded by the OP's use of inferior fixings. He may have reasons apart from their conformance (or otherwise) to British Standards for preferring a more permanent and less visible fixture (e.g. security, aesthetics). As it's his property, it's his prerogative.
ukmicky wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:23 pm
However your [sic] trying to go well beyond what is required here and I wouldn’t personally be going anywhere near the tiles or the chimneys.
At last, you're talking sense.

-----------------
arborlad wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:06 pm
Holst2 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:41 pm
Suppose I could make it spring a leak.
Hmm - hope you're not being serious!
Glad to see you're on the straight and narrow now arborlad.

-----------------
Collaborate wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:07 am
...Try and find a solution that doesn't interfere with next door.
Wow, I'm agreeing with Collaborate as well.

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Holst2 wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:46 pm
What about the issue of breach of contract as my neighbour agreed we should have the flat roof done first then went ahead and re-tiled his pitched roof before I could get my flat roof done? I have that agreement in writing!!
Tell us more about this contract. What exactly was written and when?

Holst2
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Holst2 » Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:39 am

Now I don't know what to do. I think he meant that he could afford to pay for his share whether we used surveyors or not. Trouble is its still a gamble I don't know whether there will be a dispute but even if there isnt I will still have to pay for at least one surveyor. The question is would one surveyor be cheaper than 50% of the cost of redoing his tiles?? It's a bit of a gamble because I don't know how the surveyors would rule.

I will try to get a quote from another roofer to install a terminator bar like you suggested ukmicky. Thanks. None of the three that have quoted so far have mentioned that option.

Rosenberger -- Do you think that the contract we have would help. When the roofers came to do neighbours roof in 2015?? I went round to have a word with him and we discussed that the felt should go under his tiles. He agreed and I wrote to confirm that. He wrote back a bit shirtily saying he understood the construction requirements but as his roof was leaking (see he doesnt like it!!) he wanted to get on with repairs. I didnt have enough money to re-felt the flat roof there and then so I just patched it again. Then about 18 months ago he went ahead and re tiled his roof without telling me which made it impossible for me to re-felt my flat roof as we had agreed mine should be done first. So thats how he has caused all these problems. The agreement was in writing so surely that is an enforceable contract?? And he is in breach of contract.

ukmicky
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by ukmicky » Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:41 am

You have an agreement not a contract. Legally there is a massive difference between the two.

Just separate the two areas like I said and repair your bit.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

Rosenberg
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Rosenberg » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:09 pm

Eighteen months ago is roughly mid-2018. That's about three years after you entered into this agreement with your neighbour, yet you didn't replace your roof within that time! I'm not surprised your neighbour got fed up waiting and, as you say, and 'went ahead and re tiled his roof without telling me'. Frankly its amazing he waited that long for you to get your finger out.

ukmicky wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:41 am
Just separate the two areas like I said and repair your bit.
I agree with ukmickey. :lol:

ukmicky wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:41 am
You have an agreement not a contract. Legally there is a massive difference between the two.
As the OP asked previously, perhaps you could explain the difference, legally, for the benefit of readers who might be interested.

Collaborate
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Collaborate » Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:10 am

mr sheen wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:59 pm
If you interfere with the neighbours property without his express consent and agreement, then On return from holiday, the neighbour can contact the police and it is highly likely that you will be arrested and interviewed under caution.

I disagree. What is the offence? Are the police officers lounging in their slippers in the station waiting for the call to come in, or do they have 10,000 more imprtant and more pressing things to deal with.

As for civil remedies, what is the neighbour's loss? He has a better (newer) roof than before.

Clifford Pope
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Clifford Pope » Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:50 pm

Rosenberg wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:09 pm

ukmicky wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:41 am
You have an agreement not a contract. Legally there is a massive difference between the two.
As the OP asked previously, perhaps you could explain the difference, legally, for the benefit of readers who might be interested.


First Google search:

"The terms “agreement” and “contract” are used interchangeably, but legally speaking, they are two different things. An agreement is simply an understanding or arrangement between two or more parties. A contract is a specific agreement with terms and conditions that are enforceable in court."

Rosenberg
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Rosenberg » Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:33 pm

[Moved to later]
Last edited by Rosenberg on Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Rosenberg
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Rosenberg » Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:37 pm

Collaborate wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:10 am
mr sheen wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:59 pm
If you interfere with the neighbours property without his express consent and agreement, then On return from holiday, the neighbour can contact the police and it is highly likely that you will be arrested and interviewed under caution.

I disagree. What is the offence? Are the police officers lounging in their slippers in the station waiting for the call to come in, or do they have 10,000 more imprtant and more pressing things to deal with.

As for civil remedies, what is the neighbour's loss? He has a better (newer) roof than before.
The neighbour might disagree that the new roof is better. Not all roofers provide the same quality of material and workmanship. The neighbour might regard the fact that his tiles have been reattached using only temporary clips as an inferior arrangement. The neighbour might regard the the loss of his new roof's warranty as something which also needs to be addressed via the court.
Last edited by Rosenberg on Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rosenberg
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Re: How can I make neighbour pay his fair share?

Post by Rosenberg » Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:42 pm

Clifford Pope wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:50 pm
Rosenberg wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:09 pm

ukmicky wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:41 am
You have an agreement not a contract. Legally there is a massive difference between the two.
As the OP asked previously, perhaps you could explain the difference, legally, for the benefit of readers who might be interested.


First Google search:

"The terms “agreement” and “contract” are used interchangeably, but legally speaking, they are two different things. An agreement is simply an understanding or arrangement between two or more parties. A contract is a specific agreement with terms and conditions that are enforceable in court."
Thanks for that gem CP, but I'm already aware of the semantic difference. What I was hoping was that ukmicky would explain the specific fact(s) which define the OP's arrangement with his neighbour as an agreement rather than a contract - particularly in relation to his reference to 'equity'. I note that he has been unable to do so.

It's reassuring, however, that you know how to use Google.

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