Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried out

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how_much
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Re: Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried

Post by how_much » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:42 pm

Hi Collaborate,

Thanks for the info, but as my only water supply comes from the water system, surely them cutting it off would be a violation of my rights to water? Would a judge even allow for the cutting off of a water supply to an occupied house (with kids living in it too) at this early stage (only 1 letter sent to me) of the process if my neighbours applied for an injunction?

ukmicky
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Re: Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried

Post by ukmicky » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:00 pm

how_much wrote:Hi Collaborate,

Thanks for the info, but as my only water supply comes from the water system, surely them cutting it off would be a violation of my rights to water? Would a judge even allow for the cutting off of a water supply to an occupied house (with kids living in it too) at this early stage (only 1 letter sent to me) of the process if my neighbours applied for an injunction?
If the works were not performed it would not have been them cutting you off as I understand it . its the notice from the council which would have caused the system to be condemned. . I have previously asked you what the notice said so I can only go on worst case scenario under the law as you haven't provided any detail as requested.
My solicitor didnt anything about the water system not being an easement
It is an easement ,I haven't said it is not . However you seem to misunderstand what an easement is. Under an easement they don't supply you with anything . Its your responsibility to supply yourself because all the easement does is allow you to use their land or in this case draw their water from their well ,they are under no obligation to supply you with the water.
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

how_much
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Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:55 pm

Re: Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried

Post by how_much » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:06 pm

The letter from my neighbours solicitor says if i dont pay within 28 days then they may seek an injunction to stop my use of the water system.

From the Council pov...The notice has been adhered to. The council have signed off the works, meaning the water system meets current regs.


The legislation is The Private Water Supplies Regulations 2009. They came into force in January 2010 and the Act is the Water Industry Act 1991.

The notice stated:

repair/replace the existing collecting chamber to ensure its water tight and raised from the ground by 6 inches - ALL
ensure there is an adequate cover which is watertight and there must be an adequate inspection point - ALL
Produce a site plan showing integral parts and distribution - ALL
ensure any exposed pipes are protected against vermin, vehicles and adverse weather conditions - ALL
install a stock proof fence - LAND OWNER

Thanks.

ukmicky
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Re: Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried

Post by ukmicky » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:22 pm

how_much wrote:The letter from my neighbours solicitor says if i dont pay within 28 days then they may seek an injunction to stop my use of the water system.

From the Council pov...The notice has been adhered to. The council have signed off the works, meaning the water system meets current regs.


The legislation is The Private Water Supplies Regulations 2009. They came into force in January 2010 and the Act is the Water Industry Act 1991.

The notice stated:

repair/replace the existing collecting chamber to ensure its water tight and raised from the ground by 6 inches - ALL
ensure there is an adequate cover which is watertight and there must be an adequate inspection point - ALL
Produce a site plan showing integral parts and distribution - ALL
ensure any exposed pipes are protected against vermin, vehicles and adverse weather conditions - ALL
install a stock proof fence - LAND OWNER

Thanks.
Firstly ,yes it is possible you could lose your right to draw water from their well ,if they can prove that those cost were borne fairly due to the notice from the council which you are both responsible for and you don't pay your fair share .

Taking into account the works that had to be performed on the notice what makes you believe they have done more than they had to .

You need to gain a proper itemized bill to see if those cost were actually borne and to see what work was actually performed. If it were me I would write back and say

As the dominant tenement owner and a 50 percent user of the water source I should have been consulted and involved in any decision making as to what works were going to be performed and by who. I do not disagree that I am responsible for a fair share of the cost to upgrade the system but as I was not consulted I now need to ascertain what work was actually performed and if the cost of upgrading the system was reasonable. This is the minimum a court would expect to be supplied to me before they would even consider an injunction. Please also be aware as I have an easement a court would not grant an injunction until a full hearing had taken place which potentially could cost both you and me many thousands of pounds . It is therefore within both our interests that we deal with this matter correctly and fairly so we both do not need to move forward to the litigation stage .

Therefore can you please supply me with a full schedule of works and a full itemized bill which you should have received from the company that performed the work detailing the work which was carried out and the individual costs for the labour and parts required to upgrade the system to that which was ordered by the council.


The others on this board are generally better at writing letters than me so wait for others to reply .Either that or get your solicitor to write it.
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

how_much
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Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:55 pm

Re: Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried

Post by how_much » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:54 pm

ukmicky wrote:
how_much wrote:The letter from my neighbours solicitor says if i dont pay within 28 days then they may seek an injunction to stop my use of the water system.

From the Council pov...The notice has been adhered to. The council have signed off the works, meaning the water system meets current regs.


The legislation is The Private Water Supplies Regulations 2009. They came into force in January 2010 and the Act is the Water Industry Act 1991.

The notice stated:

repair/replace the existing collecting chamber to ensure its water tight and raised from the ground by 6 inches - ALL
ensure there is an adequate cover which is watertight and there must be an adequate inspection point - ALL
Produce a site plan showing integral parts and distribution - ALL
ensure any exposed pipes are protected against vermin, vehicles and adverse weather conditions - ALL
install a stock proof fence - LAND OWNER

Thanks.
Firstly ,yes it is possible you could lose your right to draw water from their well ,if they can prove that those cost were borne fairly due to the notice from the council which you are both responsible for and you don't pay your fair share .

Taking into account the works that had to be performed on the notice what makes you believe they have done more than they had to .

You need to gain a proper itemized bill to see if those cost were actually borne and to see what work was actually performed. If it were me I would write back and say

As the dominant tenement owner and a 50 percent user of the water source I should have been consulted and involved in any decision making as to what works were going to be performed and by who. I do not disagree that I am responsible for a fair share of the cost to upgrade the system but as I was not consulted I now need to ascertain what work was actually performed and if the cost of upgrading the system was reasonable. This is the minimum a court would expect to be supplied to me before they would even consider an injunction. Please also be aware as I have an easement a court would not grant an injunction until a full hearing had taken place which potentially could cost both you and me many thousands of pounds . It is therefore within both our interests that we deal with this matter correctly and fairly so we both do not need to move forward to the litigation stage .

Therefore can you please supply me with a full schedule of works and a full itemized bill which you should have received from the company that performed the work detailing the work which was carried out and the individual costs for the labour and parts required to upgrade the system to that which was ordered by the council.


The others on this board are generally better at writing letters than me so wait for others to reply .Either that or get your solicitor to write it.
The works that i understand to have been carried out do not tally up with the costs claimed. - £6000 in total. Are the works that have been carried out been done to a higher standard then what was requested - im not 100% sure at this time.
For example a new large collection tank has been installed, which is filled from the old smaller tank. This new tank has been housed in a concrete and brick lined 'hole' in the ground. Did this need to have been done...again im not sure at present. The notice served says repair or replace...of which neither has been done...what has been done is an additional new tank has been installed. Another example, Instead of installing a stock proof fence around the tank/hole, they have built a shed on top of the hole where the tank is, so the tank is housed in a shed...and also they have put a pad lock on the door. There was no need for this work and expense to have been incurred when only a fence was required...and that is at the land owners cost as per the notice. My neighbours are claiming costs for this shed from me.

My friend has quoted me (at normal rates not mates rates) what he'd charge for similar works and it is less in total than what my neighbours are claiming 50% for. As i said i have already incurred some costs for the installing the pipe from the boundary to the house as well as the filter and UV that was required to be installed in my house as per the notice and i could have saved on costs of the works by offering my own labour to do some of the works such as digging the hole for the new tank and digging the trench from the tank to my garden.

The works carried out have been done by various independent traders who are friends and family of my neighbours.

I am asking for full copies of itemised invoices from each contractor and for all materials as well as quotes and also a description of works carried out by each contractor. But i guess these could just be made up to ensure my neighbours look to be playing ball.

how_much
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Re: Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried

Post by how_much » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:11 am

Hi Guys,

Hope you are all well.

So its been just over 7 weeks since I sent my letter requesting invoices etc for the works and monies claimed against me but I have had no response so far.

BUT!...a new situation has arisen.

When i bought my house my neighbours installed a Septic Tank which my house and their house drain into. My neighbour was contracted to install the septic tank at their expense and this is a clause in a contract from when i bought my house. The new septic tank, installed 2 years ago is on my neighbours land. The septic tank has no building control for it or a planning application for it. I have been asking for over 2 years for my neighbour to provide me proof/documents which state the tank has been installed to the required standards and I have said in writing that they remain in breach of contract for this clause. To date they have refused/ignored this request.

A few weeks ago the environment agency contacted me stating that the shared septic tank requires an EA permit and that the drainage field for the septic tank needs to meet regulations and adhere to building control before the EA permit can be granted and because i am an operator of the shared septic tank that they will be writing to me as well as my neighbour.

I informed EA that my neighbour is in breach of legal contract ie they were contracted to install the septic tank at their expense and it seems all they have done is dig a hole in the ground and dropped in a septic tank without any thought of ensuring the septic tank was installed to required standards and that i cannot be held responsible for my neighbours breach of contract/the way in which they installed the tank. EA at this point said we dont get involved with that side of things...and it was basically left at that.


So, i contacted my conveyance solicitor, who stated whilst they are not litigation experts it would be for my neighbour to ensure they meet the required standards when adhering to the contract of installing the septic tank at their own expense.

So this has got me thinking, my neighbours will likley do the works then send me an aggressive solicitors letter claiming monies for the works and will rely upon the covenant that I am to contribute towards maintenance, repair etc.

However, as i said above, surley if the septic tank had been installed properly from the get go then we wouldnt have this situation and surley it makes a mockery of any contract ie, my neighbours does a half ar*d jon and as and when any authority comes along pass part of the costs on to me and thus financially benefit themselves.

Maybe im getting ahead of myself but im just preparing for what Im sure is about to come my way!

Do you guys have any thoughts on this?

Cheers.

Collaborate
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Re: Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried

Post by Collaborate » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:03 pm

Your analysis sounds right, given that the problem appears to be with the original installation which they have botched.

jonahinoz
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Re: Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried

Post by jonahinoz » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:53 am

My neighbour was contracted to install the septic tank at their expense and this is a clause in a contract from when i bought my house.

Hi,

Have I understood correctly? Your Previous Owner (PO) contracted with your Next Door Neighbour (NDN) to instal a new septic tank in NDN's garden, for the benefit of your PO, at NDN's expense?

I cannot workout what "was in it" for the NDN?

Possibly OT ... I have read of cases of the Other Driver offering to pay his friend's garage to repair the damage to the victims car. The garage carried out the repairs to the complete satisfaction of the OD. The victim was less than happy, but by that time he had no other option than to accept ... both insures washed their hands of the matter. Could a similar situation apply to this septic tank? One wonders if the previous owner had an inkling this might/would happen?

Is removing the septic tank an option ...return to status quo? Does the OP have an existing easement to use the septic tank? Does that give him the right to replace the new septic tank at his own expense, but prevent the NDN from using it? How big is this can of worms?

Would the OP be able to install his own septic tank, but retain his easement to empty it. Would this work out cheaper than paying te NFH, if he can recaim something from the PO?

John W

how_much
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Re: Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried

Post by how_much » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:50 am

Hi Jonahinoz,

There were 2 houses on the original land (1 occupied and 1 not) both owned by my neighbours. I bought 1 of those houses and the other house is where my neighbours live. The original land was divided up when i bought my house but the original septic tank, which was on what is now my neighbours land (the retained land) was too small for 2 houses so as per a contract of sale they were contracted to install a new 'bigger' septic tank at their expense on the retained land. The new septic tank was installed in a different position to that of the old septic tank on the retained land and it now transpires that the new septic tank installation has not been done correctly. Which makes sense as my neighbours have never given me any documents which state the new septic tank has been installed correctly eg i have asked numerous times for the building control sign off, which my neighbours have ignored repeatedly for the last couple of years.


Hi collaborate,

Thanks for your reply. Hopefully i wont get any aggressive sol letters from my neighbours...but always worth preparing yourself i say!

Thanks.

jonahinoz
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Re: Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried

Post by jonahinoz » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:14 pm

The new septic tank was installed in a different position to that of the old septic tank on the retained land

Hi Howmuch,

Ah ... that makes sense now.

The price you paid for your house included the new septic tank, but shared, or for your use only? So it appears you paid, indirectly, for the new tank, but it still belongs to your neighbour? The legal implications are above my pay grade, but I assume that your solicitor is happy that you have a documented easement.

As your neighbour owned both properties, I believe there would not have been an easement prior to you buying this house ... and the same applies to your water supply?

John W

how_much
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Re: Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried

Post by how_much » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:26 pm

jonahinoz wrote:The new septic tank was installed in a different position to that of the old septic tank on the retained land

Hi Howmuch,

Ah ... that makes sense now.

The price you paid for your house included the new septic tank, but shared, or for your use only? So it appears you paid, indirectly, for the new tank, but it still belongs to your neighbour? The legal implications are above my pay grade, but I assume that your solicitor is happy that you have a documented easement.

As your neighbour owned both properties, I believe there would not have been an easement prior to you buying this house ... and the same applies to your water supply?

John W
Hi,

Yeah as part of buying the house, it included a clause for my neighbour to install a new septic tank on their land at their expense (i guess they own it, tbh never thought about that). In my deeds I have an easement/right to drain to the septic tank and also an easement/right for the supply of water from spring water system.

Im assuming a similar claim for monies (like I have with the spring system) will come my way by way of an aggressive sol letter with threats of injunctions as they have previously after my neighbour has fixed the installation of the septic tank to bring it to the required standards. But my point is that my neighbours should have done this correctly to start with and as they were contracted to install the septic tank i cannot be held responsible for their failings of the install ie not meeting the required standards/getting building control sign off/applying for an EA permit.

Cheers

arborlad
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Re: Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried

Post by arborlad » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:24 pm

how_much wrote: Im assuming a similar claim for monies (like I have with the spring system) will come my way by way of an aggressive sol letter with threats of injunctions as they have previously after my neighbour has fixed the installation of the septic tank to bring it to the required standards. But my point is that my neighbours should have done this correctly to start with and as they were contracted to install the septic tank i cannot be held responsible for their failings of the install ie not meeting the required standards/getting building control sign off/applying for an EA permit.

Cheers


Forewarned is forearmed I think, possibly a letter stating that you will not under any circumstances entertain any claim for monies to bring the septic tank up to the required standards.
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

ukmicky
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Re: Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried

Post by ukmicky » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:47 am

Its down to them to sort it out at their cost. Don't let this one sit on the back burner because the EA do have it within their power to condemn the septic tank and also if they were to move the new owners would not be liable under your contract to install .
Advice given is not legally qualified and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

Collaborate
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Re: Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried

Post by Collaborate » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:33 am

ukmicky wrote:Its down to them to sort it out at their cost. Don't let this one sit on the back burner because the EA do have it within their power to condemn the septic tank and also if they were to move the new owners would not be liable under your contract to install .
But the old owners would still be liable.

how_much
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Re: Claim of money disproportionat against the works carried

Post by how_much » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:47 am

Morning guys,

Thanks for all your help and support. As soon as EA write to me I will write back to them setting out my position stating that it is my neighbour who is solely responsible for the root cause ie the failings of the installation and that they are under contract to install the septic tank and their responsibility to adhere to the regs for this.

Although - what should I do if EA condem the septic tank...what should i do then?

Cheers.

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