Fallen leaves and fruit

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thin and crispy
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Re: Fallen leaves and fruit

Post by thin and crispy » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:44 pm

TO wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:44 pm
The fruit belongs to the tree owner. This is the case if the fruits are attached to the tree, they have fallen by natural causes, or plucked off by the neighbour.

The fruit/tree owner can, at their convenience, and as often as they like, enter onto the neighbours property to get their fruit. However, in doing so they must not cause damage, or take longer than necessary.

The neighbour does not have to look after the fruit, nor do they have to do their gardening in accordance with the tree owners wishes.

What to do. Be civil. Offer back the fruit and leaves. If the owner wants them return them to the agreed place. If the owner doesn't want them, dispose of in an appropriate manner.
Surely you are not saying that he has a right to retrieve fruit that he has deliberately or negligently caused to fall into my garden by, for example, balancing it on my fence panels. If I were to repeatedly deposit my property on someone else's land, I'm sure a court would regard it as unreasonable to then try to claim a 'right' to retrieve that property as often as I like, to the continued inconvenience and detriment of the landowner.

Fortunately, there's no way he can get into my garden without causing damage. There's no gate, and the trellis will not bear his weight.

Civility is entirely inappropriate and counterproductive when it comes to dealing with this particularly awkward neighbour. As I have already implied, he sees civility as an invitation to continue his long-standing programme of harassment. The only thing that has moderated it in the last 20 years has been my refusal to engage with him - and my CCTV.

I appreciate your post, TO. It has given me a very good idea which might just put a stop to this nonsense for good. Thanks.
Last edited by thin and crispy on Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Prejudice, not being founded on reason, cannot be removed by argument. Samuel Johnson.

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thin and crispy
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Re: Fallen leaves and fruit

Post by thin and crispy » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:48 pm

IdefixUK wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:47 pm
Some of the legal issues have been discussed in some detail in a post by 'eddieboy' in 'trees' started on Wed Aug11th 2010.
I would have posted a link but I seem unable to do that.....any one help ?

Thanks
Thanks IdefixUK. I'll have a look for that thread.

You should be able to post a link by copying the URL from your browser's address bar and then pasting it into your post using a [ URL ] ... [ /URL ] code, which you can get at via the button with a chain (i.e. link) symbol.
Prejudice, not being founded on reason, cannot be removed by argument. Samuel Johnson.

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thin and crispy
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Re: Fallen leaves and fruit

Post by thin and crispy » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:18 pm

Uriah Heap wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:22 am
Pity I was just interested in how your neighbour started creating all the trouble as Ive had my own fair share of neighbour problems, cameras pointing in my windows, superior censored looking down on me and the Mrs, that sort of thing. It can eat at you when you have got bad neighbours. You seem like you have been able to cope with it though. Probably done the best thing to ignore him, people like that feed on attension and bullying.
thin and crispy wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:17 am

Obviously something has started him off again recently - possibly it was losing his job in the family business. (After his father died a few years back, my neighbour wasn't trusted to take over running the firm. The board of directors, who were installed in his place, tolerated him for as long as they could, but now they've kicked him out on his ear.)
You know a lot about him, have you done some digging to fight back? I bet this is why you are so anti-hippy? :?: No offence meant, just wondered.
No offence taken Uriah. Yes, my neighbour's peculiar gardening obsessions are what alerted me to biodynamics and New Age nonsense. I never thought of myself as anti-hippy, but I suppose it's turned into a bit of a crusade because I see how New Age rubbish misleads so many people - usually to their detriment.

I haven't been 'digging' for dirt on my neighbour though. It's not worth the effort, but over the years I've just picked up the odd fact or two. I know someone that worked for a local charity that had New Age 'philosophy' at its core - although she doesn't believe in any of that stuff herself. Because of contacts there, and despite strong warnings from me, her husband went to work for my neighbour's company. That has yielded a few interesting snippets and, if nothing else, it has given us a good laugh from time to time.

Sorry to hear you've had problems with neighbours as well Uriah. You have to cope because, if the sort of person I've been describing senses you can't cope, it only encourages them. I've lost count of the unneighbourly (and downright criminal) things this one has done over the last two decades. We got off on the wrong foot just after he moved in when he summoned me round to his garden and reeled off a list of jobs that he thought I should do to my house. I didn't know it at the time, but I've since realised it was all a test to see how compliant I would be. Anyway, subsequent events make for a long and familiar story so I won't bore everybody with it.
Prejudice, not being founded on reason, cannot be removed by argument. Samuel Johnson.

span
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Re: Fallen leaves and fruit

Post by span » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:27 pm

TO wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:21 pm
Morgan Sweet wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:26 pm
TO wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:44 pm

The fruit/tree owner can, at their convenience, and as often as they like, enter onto the neighbours property to get their fruit. However, in doing so they must not cause damage, or take longer than necessary.
Are you sure that this is the case?
Yes.
Morgan Sweet wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:26 pm
Perhaps there is another act/law regarding fruit that I am not aware of.
Yes, and it's been this way for centuries.
There's a nuance to this, TO. In my understanding of the situation, the fruit has already fallen on the owner's ground. He then collects them and sets them up on top of the boundary fence for whatever reasons of his own.

Some of those fruit then fall off the fence into the OP's garden. Those are the fruit we're talking about. Can the owner now enter the OPs land to recover those fruit?

ukmicky
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Re: Fallen leaves and fruit

Post by ukmicky » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:49 am

TO

I totally agree about ownership of fallen fruit.

I however have never seen or read any case that provides an owner of a tree a legal defence against trespass, in order to collect his fallen fruit.


Do you know of any case law that says such a right exists
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

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Re: Fallen leaves and fruit

Post by IdefixUK » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:39 am


TO
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Re: Fallen leaves and fruit

Post by TO » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:12 am

span wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:27 pm
There's a nuance to this, TO. In my understanding of the situation, the fruit has already fallen on the owner's ground. He then collects them and sets them up on top of the boundary fence for whatever reasons of his own.

Some of those fruit then fall off the fence into the OP's garden. Those are the fruit we're talking about. Can the owner now enter the OPs land to recover those fruit?
Probably, until such times as the neighbour can get an injunction stopping the tree/fruit owner acting unreasonably.
IdefixUK wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:39 am
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14027

deja vu
Thanks. Saved me doing it.

arborlad
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Re: Fallen leaves and fruit

Post by arborlad » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:40 pm

.................and another: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15543
arborlad

smile...it confuses people

Morgan Sweet
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Re: Fallen leaves and fruit

Post by Morgan Sweet » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:07 pm

TO wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:21 pm
Morgan Sweet wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:26 pm
TO wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:44 pm

The fruit/tree owner can, at their convenience, and as often as they like, enter onto the neighbours property to get their fruit. However, in doing so they must not cause damage, or take longer than necessary.
Are you sure that this is the case?
Yes.
Morgan Sweet wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:26 pm
Perhaps there is another act/law regarding fruit that I am not aware of.
Yes, and it's been this way for centuries.
Trespass is trespass is trespass; the civil law provides remedies to those who are harmed by the conduct of other people. Trespass to land is one of the oldest actions known to the common law and consists of any unjustifiable intrusion by a person upon the land in possession of another. When a trespass is alleged, it is for the trespasser to justify the ‘trespass’ to avoid the consequences; for instance, they have a licence to occupy the property, or a legal right of way across someone’s land.

I question that trespassing onto a neighbour's land to pick up fruit that has naturally fallen onto neighbouring land justifies an act of 'trespass'.

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thin and crispy
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Re: Fallen leaves and fruit

Post by thin and crispy » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:54 pm

So, if I have understood the content of the other thread correctly, the upshot is that that this hasn't been tested in the courts since the 17th century. According to TO a judgement at that time said:

"If a tree grow in an hedge, and the fruit fall into another man's land, the owner may fetch it in the other man's land".

One question that I don't think has been raised is the significance of the tree growing in a hedge (presumably a hedge that marks a boundary). In what way did that have a bearing on the judgement? If it didn't have a bearing, why was it mentioned at all in the judgement?

At that time fruit was, relatively speaking, of higher value then than it is today, so I presume the law is unlikely to be tested in my case. As (a) my neighbour can't get into my garden without causing damage, (b) I have video evidence, and (c) I now plan to implement a further deterrent (specific to my neighbour's peculiarities), it doesn't seem like I have much to worry about. In any case, as the police have, in the past, told him to stay away from us, I think they might take a dim view of any trespass regardless of my neighbour quoting a 17th century judgement to them. Thank you all for your contributions.

PS. There's a separate question, that of my neighbour's liability if the fruit he has deliberately or negligently caused to fall into my garden (e.g. by balancing it on my fence) causes someone to trip/fall/slip and injure themselves.
Prejudice, not being founded on reason, cannot be removed by argument. Samuel Johnson.

ukmicky
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Re: Fallen leaves and fruit

Post by ukmicky » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:41 pm

Thin and crispy
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14027&start=15

Me and To had a discussion about if the owner of the fruit has a right of entry on this one about 8 years ago

My opinion based on my research and others was there was no right to enter .


TO as is his right disagreed
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Re: Fallen leaves and fruit

Post by TO » Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:27 pm

thin and crispy wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:54 pm
"If a tree grow in an hedge, and the fruit fall into another man's land, the owner may fetch it in the other man's land".

One question that I don't think has been raised is the significance of the tree growing in a hedge (presumably a hedge that marks a boundary). In what way did that have a bearing on the judgement? If it didn't have a bearing, why was it mentioned at all in the judgement
Don't be too selective in what you read. The judge made clear that if the fruit fell onto another man's land he can go and get it.
thin and crispy wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:54 pm

As (a) my neighbour can't get into my garden without causing damage
Depriving someone of their property is theft no matter how it is contrived.
thin and crispy wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:54 pm
it doesn't seem like I have much to worry about.
Probably not, depends on your neighbour really.

thin and crispy wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:54 pm
In any case, as the police have, in the past, told him to stay away from us, I think they might take a dim view of any trespass regardless of my neighbour quoting a 17th century judgement to them.
What you're hoping is that the police don't know that he is only exercising his lawful right. And you'd probably be right.
thin and crispy wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:54 pm
PS. There's a separate question, that of my neighbour's liability if the fruit he has deliberately or negligently caused to fall into my garden (e.g. by balancing it on my fence) causes someone to trip/fall/slip and injure themselves.
Well you've already decided he's liable. However, such things are rarely black or white. There's usually some degree of proportionality to these things, and that's for the Courts to decide.
ukmicky wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:41 pm
Me and To had a discussion about if the owner of the fruit has a right of entry on this one about 8 years ago

My opinion based on my research and others was there was no right to enter .
Research from where isn't clear, this internet site maybe. As UKMicky says, it is his opinion. On the other hand I don't have an opinion. It was this way way back when I was in college, the pre-eminent barrister of our times who dealt with trees, and who wrote a couple of tomes on the law relating to trees, which include this issue, also takes the view, no doubt based on the referenced case, that the tree/fruit owner can go and get their fruit.

The law is as it is, until such times as it is changed. And judging by the length of time that there hasn't been a change, I wouldn't hold your breath in anticipation of one anytime soon.

ukmicky
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Re: Fallen leaves and fruit

Post by ukmicky » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:13 pm

Part of my evidence in the previous post 8 years ago was evidence from a senior barrister asked by parliament to provide answers on the matter and who then produced a parliamentary research paper for parliament that I linked to on the subject. Due to that I would say my evidence did provide some form of an authoritive view that carried weight. It’s just a shame the research paper is no longer available after all this time .


The.main problem you have TO with your belief is the case you mentioned in the post 8 years ago means nothing unless it was a case from a court of sufficient standing that it created a precedent that had to be followed by other courts.

Unfortunately that can’t be said to be the case.

Also whilst there are precedents from courts of sufficient standing that still carry weight from 100s of years ago there are not many from the 16 th and 17 th century that do as most aspects of the law have evolved since then .

The majority of court cases in the 16 hundreds were not even presided over by anyone qualified in law.

You say the law is the law until it’s changed ,show me something authorative on the matter that shows you belief as to this right is correct.
.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

IdefixUK
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Re: Fallen leaves and fruit

Post by IdefixUK » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:16 pm

viewtopic.php?t=1639&postdays=0&postord ... ys&start=0
Conveyancer wrote in this interesting thread, some of which may be relevant to the current thread.

Janieb
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Re: Fallen leaves and fruit

Post by Janieb » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:23 pm

I've been reading this thread with interest. It's all low level harassment. I put up with this for 12 years. I did tell my children about it but they just thought I was being silly until my daughter was here last summer when he(next door neighbour but one) appeared in my garden and started shouting at me for no reason. She appeared from the house and told him not to speak to me like that.

The trouble with this type of harassment is that it destroys your confidence in yourself and there is no easy solution. He has now been gone for a year and I'm still not comfortable going out in my garden, and I love gardening. My next door neighbour has been a friend for about 15 years, and moved in just before last Xmas, we used to car share. He has about 2 square metres of my land because of the ex nfh. I have told him but I don't want to fall out with him so haven't pushed the subject.

It's one of those situations that isn't worth taking to court but is like a virus that infects your world and you can't get rid of it.
"I prefer rogues to imbeciles, because they sometimes take a rest" Alexandre Dumas (fils)

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