Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

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Permitbay
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by Permitbay » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:22 pm

He said he was appalled and would act.....

We never heard from him again! However, at that point (early 2016) the council were not pushing the issue as their legal representative agreed (in writing) that we could request the TRO be redrawn and we were just waiting for them to do so. We never heard from them for over two years. The next contact we had was in December 2018.

Collaborate
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by Collaborate » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:13 am

You seem to think of the road as your own little fiefdom. Don't. It's not.

You're in a far worse position than 99.9% of the population. Accept it as such.

Because the public have full right of way over the road you have no control over what happens to it. The local highways department can introduce parking measures as they can on any other road.

Despite all of this you are still financially responsible for the upkeep of the road. If you allow it to fall in to disrepair the LA can repair it and send you a fair proportion of the bill.

Clifford Pope
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by Clifford Pope » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:00 am

Permitbay wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:29 pm
the council brought in the scheme and everyone has to pay up.
I read it that originally you had opted in, and that some householders had declined to do so.
So it's just like any other residents parking scheme - unless you have your own off-street parking, you have to pay for a permit.

MacadamB53
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by MacadamB53 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:31 pm

Clifford Pope wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:00 am
Permitbay wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:29 pm
the council brought in the scheme and everyone has to pay up.
I read it that originally you had opted in, and that some householders had declined to do so.
So it's just like any other residents parking scheme - unless you have your own off-street parking, you have to pay for a permit.
the point some of you seem to be missing is that folk without permits - generally those dropping off or picking up kids - are frequently using the spaces without any comeback...

...leaving the permit holding OP with nowhere to park...

kind regards, Mac

mr sheen
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by mr sheen » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:42 pm

Mac
Since the road is unadopted, then 'policing' parking on what is effectively private land and unadopted highway opens another can of worms. It is questionable whether parking can be restricted/council-controlled on this unadopted road, as far as I can see the council are trying to help the landowners by indicating it is permit parking only as oppose to a massive free for all where the landowners would need to pursue each car owner through the courts.

ukmicky
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by ukmicky » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:58 pm

Permitbay wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:22 pm
He said he was appalled and would act.....

We never heard from him again! However, at that point (early 2016) the council were not pushing the issue as their legal representative agreed (in writing) that we could request the TRO be redrawn and we were just waiting for them to do so. We never heard from them for over two years. The next contact we had was in December 2018.
It would need to be classed as a highway for there to be a TRO. If it is an unadopted highway and not a council screw up which I doubt you have no rights to force the council to remove the TRO. The council have rights to apply to place TRO,s over all highways ,either adopted or unadopted.
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion

mugwump
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by mugwump » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:06 pm

I think the council has 2 hats in this situation.

Under the Highways Act 1980 then as the Highways authority they have the power to adopt and maintain the road. This doesn't apply as they do not intend to adopt it.

Under RTRA 1984 they are the Traffic authority. Under this, their power applies to ALL roads in their area whether adopted or not. The act makes no distinction. So providing they have issued a valid TRO for the parking scheme then council enforcement of parking is valid

Permitbay
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by Permitbay » Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:10 pm

Collaborate wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:13 am
You seem to think of the road as your own little fiefdom. Don't. It's not.

You're in a far worse position than 99.9% of the population. Accept it as such.

Because the public have full right of way over the road you have no control over what happens to it. The local highways department can introduce parking measures as they can on any other road.

Despite all of this you are still financially responsible for the upkeep of the road. If you allow it to fall in to disrepair the LA can repair it and send you a fair proportion of the bill.
It is not about money, we happily paid to flag our frontage and we would happily pay our share of the road resurfacing costs.

1. It is about the council not being even-handed (in that the majority of householders from numbers 18-32 originally opted out and were not forced into the scheme as the council accepted their rights to do so) and

2. The council not providing the service that the permits purport to entitle us to.

Residents living in houses 1-16 are in the scheme and residents 18-32 are not, and never have been.

However, residents 18-32 were included in the consultation and asked if they wanted our scheme to continue....and the overall vote was 10-4 in favour. My opinion is that only those affected should have been balloted. The school were also asked. We feel that the vote was skewed to achieve the desired outcome.

We never originally voted to be in the scheme but the majority of residents from 1-16 did and so we went with it.

However, it soon became obvious that we were paying for nothing as it wasn't policed enough to make it worthwhile buying 5 permits and a visitors permit book. We are happy to have parents parking for 15/20 mins per day to collect/drop off children. We are not happy to pay c£180 PA for worthless permits. I would rather give it to charity.

The scheme does not fit and has never fitted, the criteria set out for the creation of a permit parking zone as outlined on the Council's own website. The TRO was created by the council and can be varied by them if they choose to do so.

We are awaiting their written explanation before we take it further. They have not followed correct procedures and we intend to try to make them accountable for that via legal avenues and Local Government Ombudsman. Only time will tell if we are successful.

mr sheen
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by mr sheen » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:42 am

You could try not paying the fee, explaining that you do not wish to have a permit and if they seek to enforce the charge on you, then you could challenge the matter through the courts.

There are too many cars in certain areas and people will risk all sorts of penalties to park, speed etc in their cars. There are limited enforcement resources that are thinly spread. £180pa for a few properties goes nowhere towards the cost of a parking enforcement officer so if you want enforcement perhaps you could propose a massive increase in the fee that would incorporate better enforcement (25000 for 35 hour week cost of enforcement officer with NI, pension costs etc so work out contribution required for handful of properties involved and looks like true cost with enforcement would result in around 20x current contribution)

The fact that you have a permit system may act as a deterrent to some but the other option is a free for all where you will have zero deterrent and no possibility of enforcement ie anyone could park on the roadway.

There are also lots of property available with private parking on driveways and in garages and a comparison of property prices against the £180pa cost vs property with drive for private parking will enable you to assess whether the semi-restricted parking system that you currently have provides value for money.

Permitbay
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Re: Landowner rights to opt out of Permit Parking Scheme.

Post by Permitbay » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:00 am

We genuinely do not have an issue with parking.

The council stipulate that to enact a Permit Parking scheme 85% of parking spaces must be taken up during the working day and of those spaces, 60 % must be occupied by non-residents. That is simply not the case and it never has been the case.

This is a small, leafy, affluent suburb and we live in a lane which is also a cul de sac, looking across a valley to a stately home and gardens. The only non-residents who park are parents at the local primary school and they do so for 20/25 minutes each day and obviously, not at all during the school holidays.

The only way we would get value for money (or a service fit for purpose) is if the enforcement team had a man stationed at the end of the road by the school gate every day at 8.35am to 8.50am and from 3.25am to 3.40am to prevent parents from parking. However, as there are several local schools with traffic issues and limited resources, that is never going to happen. The council have told me that in writing that they police this area once every three weeks and at no set time, but as they only start work at 9am the morning drop off time is not covered anyway.

So it is not a question of evaluating the worth of what we get for the money, we actually don't get anything. I would genuinely rather give the money to charity than allow the council to receive it for nothing.

We love living here, our property (oop north!)was recently valued at c400K (due to the location and school catchment area)We had several offers immediately but we decided to stay put. Why should we move to solve a problem we don't have, but one which the council wants to charge us for, and all this on land we own?

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