Help with first tier Tribunal.

Frustratedmuchly
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:28 am
Number of Posts per Page: 12
Number of topics per page: 12

Help with first tier Tribunal.

Post by Frustratedmuchly »

Has been quite a time since I have posted on the forum and a member was super helpful with aerial photos (thank you Josephine!)

We have finally got to the stage where we have our date for the first tear tribunal and am compiling my skeleton argument.

We are representing ourselves which is incredibly intimidating, and if I am honest I am now wishing we had employed a solicitor but have very much tried to de escalate and keep costs down. We do have a surveyor that will be attending and representing us in terms of that side. The other party have neither solicitor or surveyor so feels like a relatively level playing field.

Am looking for anyone who has experience of this and can give me any guidance on a skeleton argument, I have started but unsure how much to include. Is it a brief overview or a blow by blow account of each piece of evidence? Do you have to resubmit all evidence that has gone in as a statement of case again, or do you just refer to it by the indexed number in the statement of case?

The tribunal have asked for a trial bundle but sometimes it is referred to as a heating bundle. Is this the same thing?

Not sure if anyone on this forum is able to help but thought worth an ask. Thanks all. Any help at this point very much appreciated.
arborlad
Posts: 10332
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Help with first tier Tribunal.

Post by arborlad »

arborlad

smile...it confuses people
Frustratedmuchly
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:28 am
Number of Posts per Page: 12
Number of topics per page: 12

Re: Help with first tier Tribunal.

Post by Frustratedmuchly »

Thanks Arborlad, yes that's the one. It has taken quite a while!
Collaborate
Posts: 3735
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: Help with first tier Tribunal.

Post by Collaborate »

Whoever applied to the tribunal should be responsible for preparing the bundle. the Tribunal should have specified who that is.

Assuming it is you, make sure you have Adobe Acrobat Pro. Look at this, which explains how to create the bundle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmUDC3i9aTw

You need to organise the bundle in to sections.

1. Preliminary documents (chronology, case summary)
2. Applications and orders
3. Witness statements
4. Documents.

the bundle is paginated. In your skeleton argument you refer to documents by their page number in the bundle. Agree with the other side whwt documents go in the bundle.
Frustratedmuchly
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:28 am
Number of Posts per Page: 12
Number of topics per page: 12

Re: Help with first tier Tribunal.

Post by Frustratedmuchly »

Collaborate you are a star!

Yes, it is me preparing the bundle, so will get Adobe acrobat Pro.

That video is so helpful thank you! I am sure there will be a fair bit of cursing when doing it, but instructions look very clear so I am hopeful.

In terms of bundle sections, all has been submitted so far has gone in as a statement of case from us and other the party. What I am struggling to understand is how to present that.

So prelim docs are straightforward (or I hope they will be once I have cracked on). Currently my first doc is the issue, chronology and skeleton argument on one document. Would these be better separated? In terms of chronology I have only included critical dates in terms of construction/possession.

My statement of argument needs far more work. I am not at all happy with it, but will continue to work on it.

In terms of your point 2 - applications and orders, is that just correspondence from the tribunal/judge? Including both parties responses?

Point 3 and 4 - currently these are spread through both sets of statements of case. Do I include the statement of case in its entirety? If so can I refer to the documents and witness statements within these documents? It states on the letter to avoid unnecessary duplication, but I know there is definitely duplication within the bundles. I don't want to annoy the judge by giving them tons of duplicate/irrelevant docs.

Once I have done this I send this document to the other side and they have to say if they agree with it or not? This could be a point of contention as the other party wants a document that they drew/wrote and lodged with the land registry some years ago disregarded as not relevant, but our surveyor said it is very relevant.

Hope you don't mind me firing questions back, am keen to understand this fully.

Thanks again.
Collaborate
Posts: 3735
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: Help with first tier Tribunal.

Post by Collaborate »

Really you should be asking the tribunal if they have a preferred way of organising the bundle.

But as far as the documents are concerned they should be detached from the statements and placed in their own section. The PDF must be bookmarked for each document, and indexed.
Frustratedmuchly
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:28 am
Number of Posts per Page: 12
Number of topics per page: 12

Re: Help with first tier Tribunal.

Post by Frustratedmuchly »

Perfect.

Thank you.

I can contact the tribunal - they have given me a list of instructions but I haven't found it clear - or clear enough for me to understand anyway. They feel intimidating so was put off contacting them.
Collaborate
Posts: 3735
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: Help with first tier Tribunal.

Post by Collaborate »

They would much rather someone acting in person asks them to clarify a point of procedure instead of taking a guess and hoping they get it right.

Para 6(3)k of this gives the tribunal the power to order a bundle be prepared. But I cannot find any rules governing their composition. They will be willing to give you guidance.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... _Rules.pdf
Frustratedmuchly
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:28 am
Number of Posts per Page: 12
Number of topics per page: 12

Re: Help with first tier Tribunal.

Post by Frustratedmuchly »

Thanks again Collaborate.

I am having to do this on days off work, it needs such focus and attention.

I will give them a call when I can. They have sent a guide - I’ll upload it here when I can, it’s helpful to a point but assumes a basic knowledge (that I clearly haven’t got!)

Can I ask another question, when compiling the bundle - I include all evidence submitted in both of the statements of fact. Do I then send that to the other party for approval? As a list or the bundle itself?
Collaborate
Posts: 3735
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: Help with first tier Tribunal.

Post by Collaborate »

Frustratedmuchly wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 1:20 pm Thanks again Collaborate.

I am having to do this on days off work, it needs such focus and attention.

I will give them a call when I can. They have sent a guide - I’ll upload it here when I can, it’s helpful to a point but assumes a basic knowledge (that I clearly haven’t got!)

Can I ask another question, when compiling the bundle - I include all evidence submitted in both of the statements of fact. Do I then send that to the other party for approval? As a list or the bundle itself?
Yes. Just send the index and then you can send the pdf of the bundle when agreed and ready.
Frustratedmuchly
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:28 am
Number of Posts per Page: 12
Number of topics per page: 12

Re: Help with first tier Tribunal.

Post by Frustratedmuchly »

Thanks again.

Will crack on and if I encounter any more issues may come back to you if that’s ok. Will also ring land registry to see if they’ll offer advice .
Frustratedmuchly
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:28 am
Number of Posts per Page: 12
Number of topics per page: 12

Re: Help with first tier Tribunal.

Post by Frustratedmuchly »

Hey again Collaborate,

Not sure if the order attached will be useful.

Called Land registry today, they aren't able to offer any info on the phone but may if I email and copy the other party in.

So first steps basically! Thanks for the pointers so far.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Collaborate
Posts: 3735
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: Help with first tier Tribunal.

Post by Collaborate »

that's helpful. I'm not sure there's anything else for them to tell you.

It's helpful that the other side must tell you 28 days before the hearing if there are any new documents they want adding. Otherwise you need to include all documents attached to statements and all other documents served upon you. Don't miss the deadline.
Frustratedmuchly
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:28 am
Number of Posts per Page: 12
Number of topics per page: 12

Re: Help with first tier Tribunal.

Post by Frustratedmuchly »

I find it both really clear and totally confusing! They did clarify on the phone that the trial bundle and hearing bundle are the same which was one point of uncertainty!

I think I am worried more from a presentation point of view, and to avoid duplications. Both parties have a statement of case, a response to the statement of case and then an additional response from an order. Many documents are duplicated several times in bundles.

I read in that document that the other party can not produce anything additional not already disclosed, so I have everything already the other party have submitted. They can only include anything previously disclosed, so no unpleasant surprises.

What I am trying to decide is if I add the statements of case as they are. Or if I pull the documents out and re number to avoid having 4 of the same item, but if I do that then the text that accompanies the stamenent of case will not make sense as the document numbers will differ. The other party have also included lots that has no relevance to the boundary - my sense is that will irritate a judge so think it would be best to keep things clear and factual, which is what I have aimed for from our point of view.

Even silly admin aspects, like can I ask the other party to send me what docs they want included as a pdf or should I just scan and save them myself?

Also, it could just be I am over complicating this, I am prone to do this at times!
Collaborate
Posts: 3735
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:17 am
Number of Posts per Page: 20
Number of topics per page: 20

Re: Help with first tier Tribunal.

Post by Collaborate »

As a litigant in person you are not expected to do anything other than put all the statements and exhibits in together. Don't leave anything out. How many pages does it all come to?
Post Reply