Help advice regarding a balcony

liamb2021
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Help advice regarding a balcony

Post by liamb2021 »

Hi I'm hoping someone can help me.

About 4 years ago we have moved into a semi detached house with a rear lower level. Since moving into our house our neighbour had a big dislike to us and we don't get on. I won't go into depth but he's also had problem with other neighbours. He's a very petty and vindictive man.

Until recently the backroom door lead into a balcony which was rotting so we have recently decided to rip it down and had a quote to erect a new one but because the deeds show this is the neighbours wall our builder said he thinks we may now may have to speak with the neighbour for permission and we already know what the answer will be.

What we'd like to know is if we rebuild it using the exact same structure as the original balcony (ie without damaging it) will he have any grounds to have it knocked down as technically no criminal damage has been done ?

Our biggest concern is we build it without permission and he will get stasfisaction from forcing us to take it down and we will be left with a door that opens to a 6ft drop 😫

Ive read online that painting or rendering it is classed as criminal damage but what about updating something that was already there ? Any help or advice would be massivley appreciated
Last edited by liamb2021 on Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
MacadamB53
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Re: Help advice regarding a balcony

Post by MacadamB53 »

liamb2021 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:33 pm Hi I'm hoping someone can help me.

About 4 years ago we have moved into a semi detached house with a rear lower level. Since moving into our house our neighbour had a big dislike to us and we don't get on. I won't go into depth but he's also had problem with other neighbours. He's a very petty and vindictive man.

Until recently the backroom door lead into a balcony which was rotting so we have recently decided to rip it down and had a quote to erect a new one but because the deads say this is the neighbours wall our builder said he thinks we may now may have to speak with the neighbour for permission and we already know what the answer will be.

What we'd like to know is if we rebuild it using the exact same structure as the original balcony (ie without damaging it) will he have any grounds to have it knocked down as technically no criminal damage has been done ?

Our biggest concern is we build it without permission and he will get stasfisaction from forcing us to take it down and we will be left with a door that opens to a 6ft drop 😫

Ive read online that painting or rendering it is classed as criminal damage but what about updating something that was already there ?
hi liamb2021,

there’s not enough information to give you a proper, useful answer.

it would be really helpful to see plan of the layout that shows who owns what, and the wording you mention from the “deeds” that say the neighbour owns some wall (which I assume is important to you plan)

kind regards, Mac
liamb2021
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Re: Help advice regarding a balcony

Post by liamb2021 »

Thanks for the reply Mac.

This is the image of the area on our deeds
Image

https://we.tl/t-hCILxLBp4x

Wording wise were struggling to find out where it says anything about it tbh but our neighbours across who have lived here 25 years have confirmed it's their wall and they paid for that wall to be built and agreed to let the previous owner of our house erect it. Albeit the neighbours built their balcony putting the floor beams through the wall and ours was just built on a lip.

I hope this helps ?
Last edited by liamb2021 on Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
liamb2021
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Re: Help advice regarding a balcony

Post by liamb2021 »

Forgive my rather crude drawing but the thick line represents a 12 foot wall, the thinner line the lower 6ft wall. The B represent where the balcony's usually are and the X type squares are each of our extensions

Image

https://we.tl/t-nTFev29Hcu

As always any help would appreciated
ukmicky
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Re: Help advice regarding a balcony

Post by ukmicky »

So in general (not taking into account details we may not be aware of) if your balcony was previously attached to his property ,his wall was a party wall Type B and you retain the right to replace it.

Now you may need to use the procedures set out in the party wall act as he has the right to protect his property from damage when you reinstate it unless the works would be deemed minor.

What works would need to be done that involves his wall as it maybe minor works if the structure of the wall is not interfered with .

You are only entitled to utilize the same parts of his wall the previous balcony fixed to . I take it you wont need to remove any brickwork and all you would be doing is reattaching to old fittings or replacing old fittings for new like for like fittings?


Explain
Any information provided is not legal advice and you are advised to gain a professional opinion
liamb2021
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Re: Help advice regarding a balcony

Post by liamb2021 »

Thanks for the response

Yes the plan is to rebuild it exactly how it was in method and structurally but possibly extend it by 35cm if possible(without making any changes to the wall) and also nstead of all from timber we were hoping to use composite although not essential.

We have realised looking at old photos as well as a railing at the end there was also one on the left (neighbours side) and always wondered why. Now it seems obvious it was likley additional support for the end railing because the neighbours never agreed for any attachments such drilled holes to be done to the wall.

https://we.tl/t-RYrethcfL7

So can I ask then

1) if we build the balcony using the same method, and he complains to the council what will happen ?

2) my uncle who's a builder (not the one doing the job) seems to think we should pop a letter round telling them we plan on doing the work assuring them the balcony will be built like for like built as before and plan in painting or rendering the wall as well and that if they have any problems to come and let us know or post a letter or note and if not will assume he's happy to do the work. But surely by not responding that's not considered as agreeing to the work ?

3) Since planning this ive had a few people and builders tell me to just build the balcony again and render it (saying surely he's not that petty?) without asking his permission and that even if he does take action it's not legal it's considered a civil dispute and would take years in court and then a costly solicitor to get anything to be done about it. Is that true ?
Collaborate
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Re: Help advice regarding a balcony

Post by Collaborate »

Anyone who can make head or tails out of a plan that is a box edged red, and two felt tip scribbles, gets my full respect.
liamb2021
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Re: Help advice regarding a balcony

Post by liamb2021 »

:oops: ! Sorry i that was on my phone.

ill do something a bit better shortly to illustrate it
Last edited by liamb2021 on Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
liamb2021
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Re: Help advice regarding a balcony

Post by liamb2021 »

okay to better clarify, this is what it looks like currently from the back looking at the house

https://prnt.sc/10yxcs3

the neighbours support beams for their balcony goes through the wall and ours is built on a lip like this

https://prnt.sc/10yxk2q

We used to have a railing against that wall too which we can only assume looking now was to support the end railing stability more due to the fact on the neighbours wall there is no holes for screws, brackets etc the previous balcony was literally fully supported by the lip and the structure of the balcony
MacadamB53
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Re: Help advice regarding a balcony

Post by MacadamB53 »

liamb2021 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:23 am Thanks for the response

Yes the plan is to rebuild it exactly how it was in method and structurally but possibly extend it by 35cm if possible(without making any changes to the wall) and also nstead of all from timber we were hoping to use composite although not essential.

We have realised looking at old photos as well as a railing at the end there was also one on the left (neighbours side) and always wondered why. Now it seems obvious it was likley additional support for the end railing because the neighbours never agreed for any attachments such drilled holes to be done to the wall.

https://we.tl/t-RYrethcfL7

So can I ask then

1) if we build the balcony using the same method, and he complains to the council what will happen ?

2) my uncle who's a builder (not the one doing the job) seems to think we should pop a letter round telling them we plan on doing the work assuring them the balcony will be built like for like built as before and plan in painting or rendering the wall as well and that if they have any problems to come and let us know or post a letter or note and if not will assume he's happy to do the work. But surely by not responding that's not considered as agreeing to the work ?

3) Since planning this ive had a few people and builders tell me to just build the balcony again and render it (saying surely he's not that petty?) without asking his permission and that even if he does take action it's not legal it's considered a civil dispute and would take years in court and then a costly solicitor to get anything to be done about it. Is that true ?
you can’t just crack on as the wall is a Party Wall B as per the Party Wall Act and you will therefore need to follow the PWA protocol
liamb2021
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Re: Help advice regarding a balcony

Post by liamb2021 »

So you are saying unlike the orignal answer we cant re-errect it to the same spec as it was before ?
liamb2021
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Re: Help advice regarding a balcony

Post by liamb2021 »

Reading this https://www.gov.uk/guidance/party-wall- ... 6-guidance

Would refreshing the same balcony wall under any of these though, as its not technically anything new or different ?

My builder says if its the same spec we should be fine and wont need to ask as its not technically "New" he said its technically the same as fitting new beams and floorboards in a house before which he said hes never had to ask the neighbours to do ?

Im getting concerned now, putting everything on hold could be quite costly and I really dont know what to do - as i said speaking to the neighbour isnt an option he will refuse just for his own pleasure :?
MacadamB53
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Re: Help advice regarding a balcony

Post by MacadamB53 »

liamb2021 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:58 pm Reading this https://www.gov.uk/guidance/party-wall- ... 6-guidance

Would refreshing the same balcony wall under any of these though, as its not technically anything new or different ?

My builder says if its the same spec we should be fine and wont need to ask as its not technically "New" he said its technically the same as fitting new beams and floorboards in a house before which he said hes never had to ask the neighbours to do ?

Im getting concerned now, putting everything on hold could be quite costly and I really dont know what to do - as i said speaking to the neighbour isnt an option he will refuse just for his own pleasure :?
in short, you’re wanting to attach a significant structure to your neighbour’s wall - without doubt it requires you to issue the adjoining owner with a PW notice

calling it a “refresh” or saying it’s “technically not new” is not relevant

you plan on carrying out work that may affect his wall - and that is why the PWA exists...

kind regards, Mac
liamb2021
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Re: Help advice regarding a balcony

Post by liamb2021 »

Olay thanks for confirming that.

So once I issue him with this PWA notice. I guess be can flat our refuse for the balcony to be rebuilt or just ignore it ? And that's that then ? No way of replacing the balcony just an open door to a 6 foot drop until we can afford to get the nearly new door changed to a window ?
IdefixUK
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Re: Help advice regarding a balcony

Post by IdefixUK »

liamb2021,
We dont know how wide this lip is on the existing wall. Would it be possible to place a beam along the lip without attaching it to the wall given that it couldn't move due to other cross beams going over your property? The front safety railing could be supported by a large "L" bracket screwed down through the flooring into that first beam on the wall. If this is possible, my own thoughts are that there could be no way the PWA can apply because you would not be drilling or changing the wall in anyway. As for rendering the wall the PWA considers this sort of work (well plastering in any case) as not falling under the Act. I would question, however, if the wall above the level of the floor of the balcony is techically a party wall, my thoughts are that this section of the wall should not be touched by you as it belongs to the neighbour and is not a party wall.There cannot be any serious doubt that your property (especially your balcony) has a right of support from the wall.
I should say that I've previously had differences of opinion with other posters about the application of the PWA. So don't be shocked by the responses.
In pracical terms your neighbour may not try to stop your rebuild in any case, I think I would seriously consider just getting the job done....he's more likely to complain about the extra few centimetres you wrote about than the rebuild of the previous structure.

Good luck.
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